Susan Peirce Thompson: A Path to Recovery from Food Addiction and Obesity

Tackling sugar addiction is more than a battle of willpower; it's a journey of understanding the neuroscience behind our cravings and learning how to heal our brain for lasting change. Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson's podcast episode is a deep dive into this process. She shares her personal story of overcoming drug addiction and obesity, highlighting her transition from a life ensnared by addictive behaviors to one where she could exercise control over her eating habits through the Bright Line Eating program.

The episode addresses the human brain's intricate landscape, which is highly responsive to rewards and susceptible to addiction. Our brains are wired to remember and seek out the cues that predict these rewards, a mechanism that can lead to an increased susceptibility to addiction in environments where food cues are omnipresent. This conversation between the host and Dr. Thompson offers an in-depth exploration of how we can transition from a dopamine-driven existence to one where serenity is achieved through balanced brain chemistry, a state influenced by a mix of neurotransmitters including serotonin, oxytocin, and endorphins.

Embarking on a journey toward better health often means rewriting one's identity, and the Bright Line Eating program is designed to facilitate this transformation. The conversation emphasizes the difference between a temporary diet and a lifestyle change, where new eating habits become an integral part of one's identity. The four Bright Lines—no sugar, no flour, eating only at meals, and measuring quantities—provide clarity and a structured path for those seeking sustainable weight loss, challenging the promises of quick fixes offered by diet medications.

Dr. Thompson also shares her insights on the concept of 'crystal vase recovery,' likening the fragility and strength of recovery to a rare and valuable object that must be cared for diligently. This analogy reinforces the ongoing vigilance required to maintain recovery from addiction. The episode further delves into the healing potential of internal family systems and parts work in psychology, illustrating how engaging with different aspects of our psyche can lead to healthier coping strategies and a more harmonious internal family system.

As the episode concludes, there's an expression of gratitude for individuals like Dr. Thompson who have dedicated their lives to improving health and nutrition, inspiring listeners to strive for a balanced existence. The heartfelt appreciation for the work done in distinguishing between effective and ineffective dietary practices is palpable, as is the collective effort to address food-related issues and guide others toward happiness and balance.

This episode not only shares the remarkable journey of Dr. Thompson but also serves as an educational resource on the science of addiction and recovery. It's a beacon of hope for those seeking freedom from the clutches of sugar addiction and offers practical, scientifically-backed advice for achieving a healthy relationship with food.

For anyone struggling with food addiction or simply seeking to improve their relationship with eating, this podcast episode with Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson is a must-listen. It's an inspiring reminder that recovery is not only possible but can be sustained with the right knowledge and tools.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome everybody to an interview today with Dr Susan Pierce-Thompson, phd. She is the founder and CEO of an online program called Bright Line Eating that works with individuals to not just lose weight but to keep the weight off, to truly reverse obesity, which is possible. And she's also the multiple New York Times bestselling author. And she's also a professor of neuroscience at Rochester University in actually, brain and cognitive sciences. Welcome, dr Thompson. Thank you so much. It's great to be back with you, florence. So I didn't share much about your own story that you're not just professionally working in this space and helping other people to address food addiction, sugar addiction and the challenge of weight and weight loss, but that you've walked this journey, that you've not just learned how to get sugar-free and how to sustain it, but how to thrive there. So do you want to share a little bit about your story with us today?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Yeah, I could talk about that. Yeah, I come by this work really honestly. It's definitely been my life's journey, my life's passion, and you know, really it all started. It all started with a mushroom trip when I was 14 years old. You know, quite seriously, it did Before that. I was a just say no girl. You know Nancy Reagan's just say no drug campaign was alive and well. I was 14 years old in 1988. And so I'm 49 years old now and I was. I was headed to Harvard is what I thought I was doing well academically, and it was the summer between eighth grade and freshman year of high school.

Speaker 2: 1:52

I was carrying weight that I didn't want to be carrying and I did a mushroom trip and had a blast, met some cute boys, stayed out really late and lost seven pounds and was up all night, slept the next day and then woke up the next morning, padded over to the bathroom, scale the way myself first thing in the morning, as I did every day, and my mom caught a glimpse of me walking over there. She shouts out oh, you look skinny. And I step on the scale and I'm seven pounds down and I've just had the time of my life and my little world tilted on its axis, so fast forward. It's too bad. In our language the word drugs is like psilocybin and crystal meth, like using the same word. So basically my schema just flipped from oh, drugs aren't bad, they're good and they help you lose weight, and so that escalate, you know, proceeded to kick off, um, an escalating cascade of six years where my drug use got worse. I mean it, it it got really bad. I dropped out of high. So not only did I not go to Harvard, but I dropped out of high school.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Um, and yeah, and by the time I was 19 years old, I was a high school dropout, a crack cocaine addict and a prostitute, and that was my resume. Oh, and I didn't have a key to a place that I lived. Uh, I wasn't sleeping on the streets, but I was sleeping kind of couch to couch. And when I was 20 years old I got struck clean and sober by a miracle. Some cute guy that I met at a gas station at three in the morning took me to a 12-step meeting for drug and alcohol recovery on our first date Bizarre. And I've been clean and sober ever since. I got a 24-hour coin. I started working the steps I put on a ton of weight like I knew I would, and at first I was fine with that. I was just so happy that the madness that had become my life had stopped. But pretty soon I was not okay with it and what happened was Florence.

Speaker 2: 4:02

I started eating addictively and because I was so fresh off of drug addiction I could see it really clearly. Like my eating, my binging, sort of escalated. And there was this one night where I was going out to smoke a cigarette, coming back in to eat more binge foods, and I was up till four in the morning and this round of cigarettes and food, and cigarettes and food, and I was shoveling in all this food and I came back in from one of those smoke breaks and I'm old enough that I'm going to date myself here I came back in. I'd been watching TV while I was eating and the vertical bars on the TV were on and the sound was, which back in that day, meant that programming had ended for the night. There was no more TV. It was like 4am or whatever it was, and so I got kind of jolted out of my misery and I just looked at all the detritus of all my bags and boxes. You know, the pot, the pot of almost finished cheesy pasta that I'd made at the plate of. You know, say it English muffins with butter and jam that I'd finished, and the and the wrappers of Twix bars that I'd eaten, and the plate of brownies that I'd eaten and the bowl of raw cookie dough that I'd almost finished, and the partial pizza that was, like now gone. And I just looked at all this food and I'd been eating for hours and hours and I just thought, first of all, this isn't sober behavior and, second of all, I'm not eating, I'm using, I'm using. This feels just like being in the crack house, but I didn't know what to do about it.

Speaker 2: 5:50

So, fast forward, I did start 12-step food recovery. Didn't get the magic like I did with drugs and alcohol, and I think it's because you can't just stop eating and I was in a program that wasn't really clear that you have to give up sugar. It was kind of like pick your own definition of abstinence and so over the next eight years I just got fatter as I tried, you know, went to more and more meetings and found different sponsors and tried different definitions of what I was giving up and you know, it was enough like recovery activity, that I thought I was still in the mix and things would work to certain degrees at certain points. But what ended up happening was I hit my highest weight, you know, while going to all these meetings. And then I found an approach that really was what I now call a bright line for sugar and oh, by the way, flour.

Speaker 2: 6:45

And I gave up sugar and flour 20 years ago and yeah, so I went from a US size 16 to a US size four. I did relapse once and got up to a US size 24 and then lost all my excess weight again and I've been in this size body now for almost 20 years. So anyway, so yeah, and then I started studying the brain. So boom, uc Berkeley 4.0, spoke at the graduation cognitive science, got my PhD in brain and cognitive sciences at one of the best schools in the world in that field, and then did a postdoc in Sydney, australia, for a couple of years and then spent 16 years in aggregate teaching college courses on psychology and brain and cognitive sciences, including a course on the psychology of eating and then neuroscience of food addiction. So that's what led me to found Bright Line Eating many years later the combination of my own personal recovery journey and the academic experience that I'd accumulated.

Speaker 1: 7:49

So that's the story in a nutshell. Incredible story, and I can just imagine. I'm curious about your brain. I'm literally hearing your story and thinking how can a young 14-year-old have one mushroom trip and wind up? You know a prostitute on the streets. I'm like what's going on in her brain and I can imagine that's what drove you into your studies. What exactly is what did you discover about the brain, susan, your brain and others brains, yeah well, what I discovered is, first of all, that addiction is addiction is addiction.

Speaker 2: 8:20

There are some slight differences, but really it's all hitting the same circuitry and pretty much the same way. The major thing is dopamine downregulation in the addiction circuitry. So the mesolimbic reward pathway, the nucleus accumbens, the ventral tegmental area, there's this little cluster of circuits deep, deep, deep in the brain. This is primitive stuff. This is the part of the brain that makes sure that we survive, like eat, have sex, like. That's what it's driving us to do Some other things too, but that's mainly it and it's not pleasure. People talk about dopamine as pleasure. They've got that wrong. It's actually more well, it's more is what it is. It's motivation. It's more, better, faster. Now it's seek and find and get it and do it and find it. And you know, and anytime something lights up those circuits, the brain like wires to remember okay, what just happened, what just happened, like what was that. And it's brains like mine, and maybe some of our you, of our viewers here who are joining us, that are highly attuned to the cues that predict those rewards. Like the brain goes oh yeah, that'll do, like that was it, that was a hit, we liked that and what was it that just preceded that? So we know how do we find our way here again, and soon right. And so some brains wire really readily for that. So we know how do we find our way here again, and soon right. And so some brains wire really readily for that.

Speaker 2: 9:49

Now, this was very adaptive. Back in the day we were the ones in the tribe who would definitely know which rustle it was that predicted a snake was in that bush, which constellation of clouds predicted rain would hit the crops. We were attuned to the cues that predicted rewards. But today, in our environment, when there's food billboards and cues everywhere, the logos, the smells, the sights, the sounds having a brain like this is quite a liability in our current food culture. And, by the way, once those dopamine receptors are downregulated meaning they've gotten gimpy, they don't work very well anymore. They're not very robust, they don't respond very well because they've been blown out by all that excessive use. Once you have dopamine receptors like that, they'll take a hit from anything, and that's why cross addiction is so common. So it's not surprising that I jumped right from the crack to the bowls of cookie dough Right.

Speaker 1: 10:43

I jumped right from the crack to the you know bowls of cookie dough Right, which begs the question because often food or sugar addiction letting go of you know addictive eating what am I going to replace it with? Like I've got rid of, it's usually the last stop, like this is the last thing I need to let go of.

Speaker 2: 10:57

So you know how do we how do you heal the brain so that it's not looking for another, so we're not moving into another cross addiction? What have you learned about that? Well, what I've learned is, first of all, I would say, be gentle with yourself. I think, when it comes to really healing the brain, a combination of firmness with oneself and gentleness is really an order, because it's a long process. It's a long process, right, and there's a lot wrapped up in it. I can say today that I feel like most days, by and large today, I feel like I'm addicted to nothing, like I'm really free, and sometimes I'll notice something creeping in that I'm a little too hooked on. I'm doing it a little more. It never reaches what I would consider full-blown addiction, which is like using, with tears streaming down your face and shaking, and you can't stop.

Speaker 2: 11:53

And I've been there. I mean, I was there on some guy that I met. When was that? It was like 10 years ago or something. I got this crush on this guy and he would text me and I would shake like, oh God, I was this crush on this guy and I like, like he would text me and I would shake, you know, like oh God, I was so hooked on this guy, you know like it, you know, and I I got into another loop with cigarettes.

Speaker 2: 12:11

Like five and a half years ago I picked him up, you know, and you know some people were smoking and it just I hadn't had a cigarette in forever and I thought, oh, I'll have one, we'll just socialize here. And I bought a pack that night and was smoking a pack until I puked that night and then I was back on the merry-go-round with cigarettes on and off for about six months until I finally put them down for good five and a half years ago again. But most times I feel addicted to nothing these days but the circuits wire fast but they also heal pretty fast. So I have data from my program showing that when people start Bright Line Eating and they do no sugar, no flour, you know, within eight weeks their cravings have gone down to little or no cravings anymore and that's a measure of the healing of the dopamine receptors.

Speaker 2: 12:59

So, and then you start one clicking on Amazon or you know, whatever your jam is, you know, um, and and the receptors, can you know, get, get blown out a little bit again, right? So you just got to watch that interplay. It's a lifelong process, but but real healing is possible and it becomes your greatest teacher. Because then it's like if you really fall in love with the peace and the ease of what real recovery feels, like you don't wanna trade it for anything, like I don't wanna be hooked on anything, you know. Like you know he was cute, but after a little bit like I really just wanted to get rid of that guy because he was costing me my peace and that's not worth it.

Speaker 1: 13:42

Incredible Dr Lustig talks about in Hacking the American Mind, how we want to switch off this constant dopamine more, bigger, better, constant needing. I need, I want, I need that desperation that dopamine can drive us to, to switch it over to serotonin where we feel complete. That is enough. I've done that walk in nature and it's enough. I'm not craving more, I'm not. I'm full right, I'm satisfied, I'm satisfiable and that that, that that journey of getting unhooked from the constant search for dopamine hits to a balanced brain and it sounds like you're there.

Speaker 2: 14:19

I feel like I'm there. I feel like I'm there and there's, there's. There's a constellation of neurotransmitters actually that are the sort of Eddie's in the here and now, and it's good to know what they are and what does the does it for them, because you can then kind of seek that out. And they are serotonin for sure, and oxytocin and endorphin, right. So endorphin from laughing, crying and exercise, laughing, crying and exercise. So keep your emotional channels really healthy and get out and sweat it up sometimes. And then oxytocin from hugs and warmth and physical closeness, from hugs and warmth and physical closeness. You know you don't have a spouse, get a pet, you know, and cuddle and shake hands and hug, you know, go to 12-step meetings, get your hugs.

Speaker 2: 15:13

And then serotonin here's an interesting one, big, like. Good, healthy doses of serotonin come from the respect of your peers, like getting accolades in front of your peers, like building esteem in a community is serotonin. And so this is where recovery happens in community. And become someone who stays abstinent, who you know takes on service positions, who you know belongs to the Rotary Club and is the treasurer of the food drive. You know, whatever right, like do esteemable things in community, be seen doing it and that releases serotonin. Wow, that's very interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 16:00

Yeah, it is. And how important it is for all of us to feel like we're special, that we're all seen, that we all have a contribution to make, that we're like some people are you know, the loud and proud and the extroverts and but there's others that are doing small, subtle things and they can be seen and appreciated and still get that hit. Yeah, you don't have to be main stage to get that, that feeling of I'm I, of I belong and I'm seen and I'm valued. Yeah, when we go back to your first book, bright Line Eating, people who are desperate to lose weight have tried so many different diets and I can imagine it's tempting to think, oh, I found out about the Bright Line Eating and it's no sugar, no flour, and I'm going to be on the no sugar, no flour diet. But it's not a diet. What makes it different, Susan? Yeah, I'm going to be on the no sugar, no flour diet, but it's not a diet.

Speaker 2: 16:45

What makes it different, Susan? Yeah, this is great. I love this question because I really think it's important to think deeply about this. Right, you know what makes something not a diet? It's not just one thing, there's a little cluster of things that makes something not a diet. One is you don't plan to end it. Okay, you plan to be on it. And so someone who's vegan isn't on a diet, right, they just eat that way and they don't plan to stop. That's how they eat, right.

Speaker 2: 17:19

And another thing that makes something not a diet is it's deeply tied to your identity. It's who you are, it's something deep about you. Again, if someone's vegan, it's really tied to their identity deeply. And so, you know, we have a Bright Line Eating Bootcamp, which is, you know, an eight, eight, 10 week, 10 week program. So a couple months, right, and then they become bright lifers and a bright lifer. That's an identity, and we chose that name very mindfully to evoke the depth of the identity a bright lifer.

Speaker 2: 17:58

And you can hear it in people's language right, when the dessert gets passed at Thanksgiving, do they hem and haw at the pumpkin pie and think, well, I'm not really supposed to eat that because I'm kind of on this. No sugar thing, right. Can you hear the diet mentality in that? I'm not supposed to eat that because I'm kind of on this sugar thing, right. Or someone passes the plate right by and says and maybe doesn't even say anything, just here you go. And then someone says, well, you're not going to have the pumpkin pie, no, I don't eat sugar, right. Like I don't eat sugar, I don't eat sugar. And so deep, deep, deep identity. And that kind of identity is built one day at a time. It takes a while, but we have an acronym in Bright Line Eating which is JFTFP just follow the plan or just follow the fabulous plan. We have a lot of people in the Latter-day Saints community. They definitely say just follow the fabulous plan, just follow the fantastic plan, just follow the effing plan, whatever, jftfp. We have people with tattoos of JFTFP on their wrists and feet and ankles and absolute knuckles JFTFP. And when you adopt the identity of someone who just follows the frigging plan for today, you can do that as an act, as if thing, and take the identity of someone who's trying that out for today. And what's cool is that identity can grow and deepen into who you really are. I am someone who just follows this plan and it can. It's like a pathway to an identity. But you know, you also see the the I'm not, I'm, I'm not doing this temporarily thing in people's orientation to the weight loss.

Speaker 2: 19:49

People tend to lose weight pretty fast, in bright line eating. The weight comes off. And as people are losing weight, there's people for whom, if it's not as fast as they think it should be, are like upset about that and they want to accelerate it. And what can I do? And I only lost four pounds last month and whatever. And then there's people who lose four pounds in a month and they're like cool in the game because they're thinking there's no rush to anywhere, because maintenance is going to be just like this, except I'm just going to get some extra servings of rice at lunch and dinner or whatever it's like. It's not going to be any different. I'm just going to be eating a little bit more food and you know, and I'm not going anywhere. So, in the context of my whole life, what does it matter if I lose this weight in six months or six years? It doesn't matter. This is my life.

Speaker 1: 20:39

Incredible. And so many people come into Bright Line Eating because so many people want to lose weight and they're so jaded on the whole. Oh, there's another weight loss approach. They've been bombarded by people you know saying I can help you, I can help you with this weight loss. You come in, they come into your program and they discover that you teach four bright lines which you can elaborate on in a second, and one. Two of them are no sugar, no flour, no snack, no snacking. And they're like, oh, that's too hard, that's crazy, that's difficult. I'm going to go back and get that GLP-1 prescription. What's the difference? Why? Why is this path? Why it looks so hard, but why in the? At the end of the day, I think we'd probably both make the case that it is easier.

Speaker 2: 21:28

Yeah, I mean, I did a. I did a. I put out a weekly vlog every Wednesday and I did a vlog on the pros and cons of some of glutide drugs and, oh my gosh, we had a rainstorm outside and then the sun just came in and let me just close these shades really quickly, okay, weird light, okay. So yeah, the four bright lines are actually sugar flour meals. So that's kind of the no snacking one you were saying, like we eat meals, we don't graze or snack in between. And quantities, which is usually weighing and measuring your food. So, absolutely like strictamundo, holy smokadoodles, right. And the thing there is that we put really clear boundaries around our eating so that someone who's doing Bright Line Eating, literally with every bite of food, could tell is this bite of food right here, is this on my plan or off my plan today? And they would know the answer for every single bite of food because they've written down their food the night before and they're putting it on a digital food scale. So maybe they're having, you know, four ounces of salmon and six ounces of broccoli and you know six ounces of, you know, strawberries and a tablespoon of olive oil for lunch, let's say, or whatever, right, and so if it's a baby carrot, that's not on their food plan. They committed six ounces of broccoli for lunch. That baby carrot's not on their food plan. And you might say, oh my gosh, that's ridiculous. A baby carrot is like a calorie, like, come on, what is this? An eating disorder? And it's like no, no, no, we're talking about actual addiction. Like do you really think that 3 billion people can't lose weight for no reason? Like that there's just 3 billion weak-willed people out there in the world. Like this is a bona fide addiction. And the alcoholic is clear with every sip of beverage that they take, whether it's sober or not sober. Every sip of every beverage is delineated very clearly in this camp or that camp.

Speaker 2: 23:38

And when you're clear, like that, you start to write down your food the night before and then eat only and exactly that the next day and you put your head on the pillow, feeling suddenly so right with yourself and so free, and the amounts of food that you're eating are voluminous. People are stunned by how much food it is and the weight's falling off and they're not hungry and it's working, and all it takes is a little bit of you know, it takes a couple minutes at night to write down what they're going to eat. And suddenly they're in the system and they're in the groove. The eating becomes as automatic as brushing their teeth. And I've forgotten what question you actually asked me. But yeah, those are the four bright lines sugar, flour, meals and quantities. And yeah, people think that it's crazy pants and it's like, well you know, oh, you were asking about the semaglutide drugs Like why not just go get a prescription?

Speaker 2: 24:28

What's the difference? Well, here's a few things. You go get a prescription for a semaglutide drug and you have to be prepared to stay on that drug forever, because you're going to lose some weight. It's going to really change how you feel about eating. It's going to make you not want to eat so much and not feel addictive around food, which is a miracle. That's amazing. But you have to stay on that prescription forever because the minute you stop it, it goes back to the way it was and you gain back all the weight, and the research is clear on that.

Speaker 2: 24:58

There's a lot of side effects associated with those drugs, including stuff we're not sure about, like why are there all those gastrointestinal side effects? Is it really doing something okay with your digestive system? And, oh, by the way, thyroid cancer and like like there's some things right. So it's a prescription, it's a pharmaceutical, so be clear, there are side effects and it doesn't do anything proactive about your wellbeing other than that, right? So we have published research showing that people who do Bright Line Eating not only lose their weight to the same tune as semaglutide drugs almost identical actually. If you look at the published research, ours and theirs people are losing exactly that amount of weight on Bright Line Eating.

Speaker 2: 25:36

So all the headlines of like miracle weight loss drug, yeah, bright Line Eating does that, right. And we have published data showing less depression, massively less depression, fewer days of poor mental health, more energy, more happiness, a massively increased feeling of being loved and supported and connected in the world, and also less hunger and less cravings, which is what the semaglutides do. Bright Line Eating does all that and makes you feel better about yourself in every way. So you know you can't. And oh, by the way, it's way cheaper. Those drugs are pretty expensive Currently. They'll probably get them, you know the price down, but yeah so there's pros and cons.

Speaker 1: 26:21

Plus, you reverse diabetes and other symptoms of metabolic disease right Like. This is a total up leveling of your level of health and mental health when you get a whole food and you're caring for yourself at that next level, as opposed to just taking a pill and yay, I'm thinner.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Yeah yeah, the health differences I would imagine would be tremendously different long-term. I mean. There are potentially some results showing some health benefits from semaglutide drugs and weight loss causes health benefits in general as well, so we would expect some health benefits there. But food really is medicine. It really does matter what you eat in terms of how long you're going to live and how good you're going to feel and how your joints feel and all that stuff. It really does matter. So that would be a big difference.

Speaker 1: 27:11

Right, right. So one thing you said earlier was what a journey this is, that it's not like some people I know you call them crystal vassers, I don't know if you made up that term. Some people come in and they go oh it's the food. I just need to eat whole foods, you know. Follow, get my bright lines in place and they're off sailing. They all sell off into the sunset. They lose their weight, they they're good. And then there's others that are on again, off again, on again, off again, and they're watching everyone else and all these various different coaching programs that help people to unhook from refined carbohydrates, fall in love with whole foods and sort of you know, do this. There's rampant relapse and so much frustration and the ones that are out struggling are like how come, I can't get this, like what's wrong with me? And what would you say to them?

Speaker 2: 27:52

Well, first of all, I would say I'm one of you. I've relapsed a bunch as well and I can attest that the piece is really here available. It does take a pretty deep surrender and in my experience it really does take putting your program whether you're working a 12-step food program or Bright Line Eating or whatever really putting it in the center of your life, kind of the center of your soul, right here and the center of what you do every day, and then put it piecing in the rest of your life around it. And probably, if you look back at your struggles, you'll see that they were during stretches of time when you weren't doing that. If you're honest with yourself, you weren't doing that and you might say, well, that's because there's other things that are more important to me than this. You know how dare you suggest that I put a food program at the center of my life and put my kids and you know all these other, you know my career, you know around it, right, and what I would say is, depending on how badly hooked you are, you might be someone who is so constituted that unless you put it in the center of your life, everything else is going to be crappy. So you're going to be doing a crappy job with your kids, not showing up fully, not being as patient with them as you could, not being as joyful with them as you could, not being as steady with them as you could. You're not going to be succeeding in your career the way you want to be, you're not going to be taking the risks and showing up fully and, like you know, it is one of those things. If you put this first, everything else is first class, and that's what it's been in my life, you know I mean. The other thing I'll say Florence is I don't think people want to hear this. I didn't want to hear this.

Speaker 2: 29:53

There's two things that I think are both equally true, and I'll say the bad news first. I'll save the good news for a second. The bad news is that addiction is a beast and nobody knows why some people get it and some people don't. There's just a tremendous amount of mystery and grace about it. I mean, when I look at being, I'm clean and sober 29 years now, flawlessly, perfectly, not a drink or a drug for 29 years. There's no rhyme or reason for that. There are many times I should have relapsed and I was just saved from relapse by grace, pure, pure, pure grace. And then I look at my food journey, which is littered with relapse, and now I'm sparkling bright, you know, completely peaceful for quite a long time. Now, you know.

Speaker 2: 30:44

And now I'll switch over to the other thing which I want to say is, while it's true that there's no guarantee of sustained recovery, that relapse is rampant and it's food is the hardest and the most relapse prone condition there is in the addiction world, in my opinion, professional opinion, in the addiction world, in my opinion, professional opinion. What I also will say is that the things that are correlated with success are powerful and recovery is stronger than addiction. And if you really really work a program, find a good one they're not all created equal. If you find a good program to work and you really pour your heart into it, you might relapse a bunch, but in my opinion you have a very high chance of getting it eventually If you just stick it out, if you just decide you want it with your whole heart. Find some people who really seem to have it together. They really have it and you want what they have and just do what they do, and you'll get it if you really want it.

Speaker 1: 31:51

Incredible. And I was somewhere along the line. I interviewed somebody who said you just don't know how many relapses you have. It's like that's the unknown.

Speaker 2: 32:01

Yeah, with cigarettes, it's like 31. I think I Google it. I'm not sure if it's 31, but it's like oh, they have data on that the average person who's a smoker, who becomes a non-smoker on average takes 31 attempts to get there.

Speaker 1: 32:16

Something ridiculous like that.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Oh my goodness Food is harder, Like why would we expect it to be any less than that? I mean, I'm sure I have 31 relapses with food in my background at least, probably, probably 231. Like, if I'm on it like all my years in 12 step programs, certain ones when I was jerking around like, oh, I'm sure 231 easily.

Speaker 1: 32:37

Yeah, I can. I can think of 300 face plants. I've done over 30 years too. Yeah, Absolutely, and so it's just so, and it's really hard to hear You'll be ready. When you're ready it's coming. Just keep trying, fall down face plant, get in the ditch and just keep coming back that if some at some point, some mysterious moment, some something clicks and there's just this, I'm so ready and almost feels easy. I don't know if you could speak, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Oh, absolutely, and that's the crystal vase thing. You want to know if you could speak to that. Yeah, oh, absolutely. And that's the crystal vase thing. You want to know where the crystal vase thing came from. Yeah, so I don't call the people crystal vasers, I call the recovery crystal vase recovery. And where that comes from is a video in the original bootcamp. We're now on bootcamp 2.0, but in the original bootcamp there was a video where I said we're getting to the end of the bootcamp and if this now feels really easy to you because I know that for a lot of you it does Like so easy that you're wondering what was I making such a big deal about? This is like this is rote. It's so easy, it's no harder than brushing my teeth. What I said to them is them brushing my teeth. What I said to them is protect it.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Imagine that your recovery is a Waterford crystal vase and protect it, don't juggle with it. Right, if you had a crystal vase from some fancy court in the 1400s or whatever. You had that vase, you owned it. You would protect it, you wouldn't juggle with it. You would put it on some table like protected. Treat your recovery that way, because if you drop the vase and shatter it. It doesn't go back the same way.

Speaker 2: 34:20

And the first time is a gift. There is something about the first time that you start where, if you just take directions and suddenly you find it's easy, then your job is a lot easier. It's just to protect that one day at a time and go into protection mode and just think every day I'm just protecting this. It's a gift, susan Pierce Thompson told me. It's a gift. I don't want to mess with it, because then you get into this other world where chronic relapse and you're trying to get back and you can get back. And now I say I have a diamond face. I have peace like I've never had before and it's for years now. I have a lot of peace for a long time.

Speaker 2: 35:01

And there's something to be said for, actually, what you learn from all of that relapse. I've learned a ton and I'm way more qualified to help people in relapse than I would have been if I'd have just gotten it one and done. But that's where the crystal vase thing comes in. And Florence. Can I say one other thing about something you were saying a second ago to the person who's in relapse over and over and over again I want to say there's something else other than be unstoppable. Keep coming back over and over again, absolutely Right, but there's something else, which is make sure you're learning from the right community of people, make sure you're following the right plan, because chronic relapse like that is usually a sign that you're not keeping your food simple enough.

Speaker 2: 35:41

Simple food is one of the cornerstones of effective recovery, and if you're mucking around at the corners in ways that you may not even notice, with condiments, with seasonings, with artificial sweeteners, those are the things that take you down and you might think you're quote unquote doing everything, but your food is probably not straight. It's probably not. And so find a community of people where stretches of five and 10 and 20 years of unbroken Bright Lines or abstinence are common. We have those sub communities in Bright Line Eating and certain 12-step programs have them as well. Apprentice yourself to one of those people and do what they do, and that's going to dramatically up your odds.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Absolutely. I love that advice. Yeah, because the first thing people ask for is where's the recipes, right, right, and you don't need them.

Speaker 2: 36:37

Nope, you don't Steam your green beans. Just keep it simple Broil your chicken, steam your green beans Fall in love with them, guaranteed.

Speaker 1: 36:45

Hard to imagine. But honestly, that dopamine looking for a hit and a party with food, it, just it, just it passes by as well. Um, susan, for you one of the turning points I know. I recall a while ago you'd had a bit of relapse. No, maybe you were struggling with volume a little bit. I don't remember. Sorry, it's a bit of a blur, but I do recall you saying there was a bit of a game changer for you when you, when you, started to work with IFS, and that there was a piece there that was really essential and precious to you. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

Speaker 2: 37:16

Yeah, sure, sure. So I started doing internal family systems, which is a method in psychology of parts work. So parts work is the notion that what a human being, a human mind, a human soul, whatever a human being is made of, isn't like one intact consciousness, like one thing it's not like. So you can hear this mono mind view coming out when people say I seem to always be at war with myself or I'm my worst enemy. Right, like that's a mono mind view. The parts view is that you have a part of yourself that wants and believes this and a different part of yourself that wants to believe something totally different. Right, and most of the deep thinkers through history have come to the conclusion that actually the human mind is made up of distinct subparts. Socrates probably said it best. He said one mind cannot both, could not both want and not want at the same time. Therefore, we're all at least two inside of us, right, and we all know that we can sit there simultaneously and you know, through a movie, and want to reach over and eat some of our partner's popcorn and not want to eat some of that popcorn, right, so the wanter is the food indulger and the not wanter is the food controller right, and so I started to learn about internal family systems and I did a deep session with Everett Considine, who's a genius and he is the person in the world who's the most experienced with helping people with food addiction, food recovery, issues in internal family systems. And Everett was working with me and he helped me find my food indulger, who was active at that time and I was in a cycle of relapse. I kept going back to the food and I was in a very stressful time in my life I mean growing Bright Line. Eating has been tremendously stressful. I have three kids and a gajillion employees and it's just a lot. And I never intended any of this. I just was trying to write a book about how food works in the brain. So anyway, we met my food indulger part and in parts work you often kind of personify that part a little bit. Imagine what if it were like a character or a person. What would they look like, what would they sound like, how would they talk? And you can actually talk to them, these parts of you.

Speaker 2: 39:55

So I met this food indulger part of me, florence. She was very dumb. She was like in her early 20s, she was kind of ditzy. She's very cute, very cute and sweet. She kind of had pigtails and, you know, maybe a cheerleader outfit on and she just she just wanted to help me. She was so nice, she was just nice and kind and you know.

Speaker 2: 40:16

So I met her. I forget what her name was. I haven't had to talk with her in a long time. She's sometimes I reach out and hold her hand through a restaurant meal or something. But basically she was saying to me that she offers me food because I seem so stressed and she just wants to help. You know, all my parts, all of our parts, are just trying to help us and I pointed out to her that after I eat like that, it causes all kinds of damage and problems and she didn't know that, she had not noticed that. But you know, I pointed out the food controller who was like pulling her hair out and sobbing, like freaking out, sitting on the curb of the street over there, like, like we can't get the food thing.

Speaker 2: 40:58

And I said, see her, she's crying, she's like, oh yeah, she looks really upset. And I said, well, cause, you know that food that we ate a couple of days ago, right, like she's really it, it it causes big problems. So she didn't know that and she was just trying to help me take a load off. She said it's just nice when you'll sit on the couch and just eat a bunch of stuff. It just seems to make you relaxed and happy for a bit. And I just like to offer you something. And I said, well, it causes all these problems. And she said, oh, and I said you know, basically we negotiated that what I needed to do was rest and she needed to help me rest.

Speaker 2: 41:40

I was in a stage of life with motherhood and you know my business and coaching everybody and everything that I would never let myself sit on the couch for three hours unless I was binging, like once I pick up the food. I kind of knew, you know, my food addiction is wicked. So once I pick up the food, I'm, I'm off to the races Like and and and it's. It's kind of like there's no telling when it's going to end, except it does. I'll get it back and check in a day or two or whatever, but like, certainly for the evening I'm eating and then I'm sitting on the couch for a few hours just like, okay, well, what now? Maybe I want to watch a movie, maybe I want to read this book. I haven't read and she's like you know, we agreed that if I got stressed, maybe she could recommend a bubble bath, you know? Or a few hours on the couch she's like oh, the food is so much yummier. And we go to the restaurant and she starts to do cartwheels. She's so excited we're going to go eat out. And I'm like well, we're going to get our thrill in the restaurant, like being really present with the people and really noticing our surroundings.

Speaker 2: 42:51

You and I are going to spend a lot of time together. We're gonna hold hands and gaze eyes. If maybe our kids are on our phone and our husband's in a bad mood or whatever we're gonna be together and we're gonna enjoy someone cooking for us, bringing the food and then going to clean it up, which is such a treat we don't have to lift a finger for that and we're gonna enjoy the evening. It's gonna be way more relaxing. And she's like oh, I like that idea you make it sound so nice. I said, yeah, it's going to be a nice evening. We don't need to eat extra. She's like we don't. I said, no, not any extra. That's the game now. We're not going to eat any extra. She's like oh okay.

Speaker 1: 43:34

So I just talked with my food indulger and it really created a shift. It's been a very lasting shift, incredible how powerful. And it's interesting as well that you acknowledge the food controller, who's the one that's freaking out like get this in check. But it's another part and it's not like you want the food controller to be controlling. There's something deeper from behind that, the self-led life. I think they, you know, they say, you can hear that the self stepped up to sort of see both of those competing sort of attempts to help you, and that something up the middle came up to meet both of them. How did you navigate the controller part?

Speaker 2: 44:06

Yeah, well, and you're very right. So in internal family systems there's this notion of the highest self and authentic self, highest self, best self. And we don't mean self in the ego sense here. We mean self in like the God self or the Divine spark.

Speaker 1: 44:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:28

Yeah, yeah, whatever you end up believing it right, whatever like the true self and what's cool about this is everyone has one. No matter how mentally ill or whatever's going on with someone, they have an authentic self, a highest self, for sure, and different people have different levels of kind of self energy that they manifest. You know you're in your authentic self. You know you're there right now when you are calm, clear, compassionate, confident, connected, curious, courageous and creative. So those are the eight Cs of authentic self. And so when you're anything else, you're in a part. If you're, you know, even like uber joy is kind of like that's a part. You know, like, like, like, really, really, really happy. You know it's not quite so. The food controller part often wants to tighten things up, maybe even a little too much. It depends on what kind of food controller you have. Right, like, maybe you had permissive parents and you don't have. It feels like you don't have any food controller, like not enough. It just feels mamby-pamby and it's never really offering enough structure. Some people have perfectionistic food controllers that drill them to the wall Like they want to. You know, when they finally get their food and check again, everything's got to be so rigid because the food controller is terrified justifiably so that if they give an inch, the food indulger is going to take a mile and run away with it again, right, and so you can get in this polarization or this war between the indulger and the controller. And that's where it's really helpful to access that highest self energy and talk with the food controller as well. And you know now I lead a really highest self-led program where. So today was a great example. What happened today For lunch, I ended up not eating what I committed to eat.

Speaker 2: 46:23

Oh, for dinner, because I had to come do this. And I got back from my chiropractor and like I was like, oh, this appointment is at this time, not at that time, and I was like, okay, I've got like 40 minutes to make any dinner, so I'm actually not going to like start sauteing all these mushrooms right now, which would take you know I it was. I had committed a meal that was going to take me half an hour to get on the table. That was not going to be doable. So now I'm throwing you know lettuce out of a box into a bowl and ready-made protein bag of frozen vegetables, getting that in the microwave for four minutes, like boom, I'm assembling a meal as fast as I can. That was a sane choice, and my highest self knew that making that swap in that moment was not motivated to get a sexier meal. It was not motivated for anything other than this is the same choice for this moment in my life and I didn't eat what I committed to eat and it was fine. It was the right thing to do.

Speaker 2: 47:23

So that's a self-led program and in the early days it can feel scary to do that because you really want to dot your I's and cross your T's as you should. And so this is where, working closely with somebody or a community of people who've walked the path before you so you can reach out in those moments of like I'm not sure what to do here. Like you know, I just got a call that you know my mom had an accident and I have to go to the hospital and I'm not sure for how long, and someone can help you walk through that with your food. But anyway, yeah, food Indulger, food Controller very important work. My third book, resume R-E-Z-O-O-M, was co-authored with Everett Considine and there's a lot of good parts, work stuff in there, including worksheets and quizzes so you can know which parts are really strong and active for you and you can learn how to work with them.

Speaker 1: 48:13

Beautiful. Speaking of books, I'd like to end by you. You've got a new book coming out. I would love for you to tell us about it, why you wrote it, what you hope it will do for people who are walking this path, unhooking from all these processed junk foods coming into bright-sized bodies, right-sized bodies. And also, I asked you if you would read one of your daily.

Speaker 2: 48:35

So if you're open to that. That'd be great too. Yeah, totally so. First of all, I just think it's such a sweet invitation that you gave me to do that. So this is my fourth book. I'm really excited about it and it's a daily meditation reader, and it's the only daily meditation reader out there for food that is not 12 step oriented oriented. So if 12 steps aren't your jam and you want a book that's different from that, but very aspirational and inspirational, scientifically grounded, with a lot of psychology woven in there and just something to speak to your heart every morning on your food journey, I encourage you to check out this book. So it's called on this bright day, on this bright day, a year of reflections for lasting food freedom, and it's written, you know, by a food addict, for food addicts, for for people who are trying to cut back on sugar or just trying to do maybe something different with their food, goodness sakes. So I picked October 21st to read to you. October 21st ease Try to be like the turtle at ease in your own shell. Bill Copeland.

Speaker 2: 49:50

Some of us have been so caught up in struggling with our weight, debating food thoughts and fighting our urges that a life of ease may seem unimaginable. Yet it is true that ease is available, though it may take some getting used to, though it may take some getting used to. Start today by noticing where you are feeling ease in your body. Which muscles feel good? Where are you not tense? How deeply can you breathe? And then notice areas of ease in your mind. What are you not worrying about? Where is there a sense of well-being? What relationships are you enjoying? We are so accustomed to finding where the problem is. We may well overlook huge swaths of ease that exist. Paying attention, noticing them and basking in them will allow ease to become more and more the norm. On this bright day, I accept the ease in my life and take a moment to savor it.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Oh, beautiful. Thank you, susan. Thank you for your four books, for this interview, for your courage of doing all the in-the-trenches research about what does and doesn't work, to help us get this food malfunction sorted out and to restore us to happy, sane lives.

Speaker 2: 51:33

Thank you so much, florence, and thank you for the summit that you do every year. It's really beautiful and helpful.

Speaker 1: 51:38

Thanks everybody for tuning in. Bye everyone.