The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
Dr. Joan Ifland: Understanding Ultra-Processed Foods and Addiction
In a world where convenience often dictates our food choices, the true cost of such decisions remains hidden from the average consumer. In this week's episode, Dr. Joan Ifland, an expert on Food Addiction, discusses the impacts of ultra-processed foods on health and addiction, revealing startling insights into our eating habits and their consequences.
Dr. Ifland begins by examining the NOVA organization's food classifications, which are instrumental in identifying the myriad of ingredients present in today's food products. NOVA categorizes foods based on their processing level, and while this system helps to highlight the link between ultra-processed foods and health issues, it is not without its shortcomings. The complexity arises when attempting to discern the line between causation and correlation, particularly as it pertains to the relationship between obesity and the consumption of processed foods. Dr. Ifland argues that physical limitations associated with obesity might limit an individual's ability to prepare home-cooked meals, rather than processed foods being the direct cause of health problems.
Further complicating the issue is NOVA's designation of certain ingredients, such as sugar and flour, as safe for home cooking, despite their potential to trigger addiction pathways similar to those affected by hard drugs. This conversation illuminates the hidden dangers in our diets, as even ingredients deemed 'safe' can be problematic for individuals with a predisposition to food addiction. Dr. Ifland urges caution and emphasizes the need for clarity in our understanding of what truly constitutes a 'healthy' diet.
The discussion delves deeper into the nature of food addiction and recovery, citing over two thousand studies that suggest processed foods can activate the brain's reward pathways in much the same way as opiates. Dr. Ifland's stance is clear: a return to simplicity and whole foods is paramount. The struggle many face with moderation, particularly within eating disorder programs, can lead to a cycle of shame and continued unhealthy eating. Dr. Ifland advocates for the recognition of problematic foods—specifically processed and ultra-processed items—and calls for a dismissal of the polarizing debates that often overshadow dietary discussions.
One of the most profound connections drawn by Dr. Ifland is the link between eating disorders and addiction, particularly the hyperactivity of reward systems within the brain. This similarity may indicate that for some individuals, abstinence could be a more viable path to recovery than moderation. Yet, she acknowledges the immense emotional and cultural hurdles that come with forsaking processed foods, which are often entwined with family traditions and expressions of love.
The episode concludes with a call to action. Listeners are encouraged to join the movement advocating for clearer terminology and understanding around food processing and addiction. Dr. Ifland's insights are not merely for contemplation but for tangible change. By recognizing the effects of dietary choices and advocating for a common language, society can take steps toward improved health and awareness.
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Welcome everybody to a special interview today with Dr Joan Ifland. I'm going to make a very quick little introduction. I'm imagining that if you're on my podcast, you're on my YouTube channel. You know who Dr Joan Ifland is. She's the author of a couple of books, one of which is the world's first and only textbook at this point on the topic of food addiction and food addiction. Well, food addiction, the science, the research around it it is gobsmacking how much science she's pulled together to validate the reality of the addictive properties of refined carbohydrates and that there are evidence of other whole foods potentially also having some capacity to activate. You know the reward pathways.
Florence:Today, what we're going to talk about is, as you may know, that NOVA. Nova is an organization that came out with it's doing, trying to help us understand. You know what is the difference between what do we mean when we talk about whole foods versus processed, versus ultra processed? And as they've been trying to sort of come up with those definitions to try and create some international consensus, their definition is being taken up by other organizations that are using that definition for other purposes. So, for example, right now, as we're conducting this interview, the food addiction recovery world is in conversation with each other.
Florence:Experts are in conversation with each other about how do we define food addiction and how do we help that definition be so science-based and evidence-based that the DSM and the doctors and governments and stuff can't help but have it be included in medical mainstream understanding that this is as bona fide a condition as any other in the DSM. It requires a diagnosis and it requires treatment. That saying that people are overweight because they're overeating and they're under-exercising is garbage. That might be true on rare occasion, but for the most part we're caught up in a food culture malfunction that is predicated upon the reality that certain foods are addictive and that we need to wake up to this reality, because leaving people to fight on their own with willpower is wrong. We don't make people do that with any other substances of use and abuse addictive substances of use and abuse. So today.
Florence:Dr Iflin and I are going to be talking about that. Her passion is just sort of coming today to the table to talk a bit about this classification of ultra-processed foods and how we have to be really careful about what we mean by that, especially in the context of addiction recovery. So welcome Dr Iflin.
Dr. Ifland:Thank you so much for having me, florence. I appreciate being here. I appreciate all the work you've done. I just I'm so grateful for your commitment to educating the world about this terrible source of suffering, terrible source of suffering?
Florence:Yeah, absolutely. So why don't we kick this conversation off by you helping us to understand what did NOVA say about ultra-processed foods Like? What is their definition and oh my?
Dr. Ifland:gosh. Talk about good hearted people. These are good hearted people. Everybody is working to find a way to show I love your phrase, florence food culture dysfunction. Everybody is trying to show people the just it's really terrifying kind of people dying and being sick and and the food industry being able to normalize that. And this is this is their attempt to show people, to give people a pathway to making better food choices. So they the category of ultra-processed foods are foods with many different ingredients industrialized ingredients, in other words, plants typically, but sometimes meats that have been so processed that they are really not food anymore. And then there are all these kinds of additives to preserve and stabilize and so on. So that's great, that is absolutely great.
Dr. Ifland:The category that is disturbing is the culinary ingredients category, and these include sugar and flour, and what NOVA did, what the NOVA team did, is that they observed that people who eat more ultra-processed foods are sicker. People who make foods at home are less sick, and so they came to a conclusion. This is a correlational study. You know, how sick are you? How much processed foods are you eating? You take two streams of data and you see that they're behaving similarly or not similarly. Here's where we go off the rails is they have established causation from between these two streams of data. And on the surface you're like, oh, of course. Of course ultra processed foods will cause more disease Because, look, people who eat more processed foods they're sicker. People who make foods at home, they're less sick. But I think there's a different explanation for that finding, and that is you know, in the United States, 44% of the country is obese and that comes with a dramatic reduction in mobility and capabilities, physical capabilities to lift something over their heads, to raise their arms, to carry groceries home, to walk up steps, to bend, and all of those motions are required to make foods at home. So I think that one other possibility here is that, as people have gotten further down the road of loss of control of their food and they're having consequences like obesity, like joint pain, like fatigue, like brain fog, like confusion, like depression, they are no longer capable of making foods at home, longer capable of making foods at home, and so you see less of making foods at home and more disease.
Dr. Ifland:So you would naturally think now, do ultra-processed foods cause disease Totally? We just have a great new study linking ultra-processed foods to 32 diseases. That's a recent study. It's clear, absolutely clear. But here's where we really have the opportunity to discuss and that is the idea that you can make safely at home. If you just take these culinary ingredients and you include them in healthy meals, that will solve the problem. Well, culinary ingredients include sugar and include flour, and right in the NOVA description of culinary ingredients is the suggestion that you can, as part of a healthy meal, make these into bread, dessert preserves and drinks. And that's where the danger lies.
Dr. Ifland:If you're food addicted and my evidence when I look at the diagnostic criteria for alcoholism as adapted to eating, which I validated those criteria in my doctoral work you come up with over 80% of the country is addicted severely. They would meet the criteria for severe addiction and I can go over those six criteria would meet the criteria for severe addiction and I can go over those six criteria. It's six out of 11, and over 80% of Americans are experiencing at least those six. So the problem here with using NOVA now, nova does not make any claim whatsoever to have any value for food addiction. I've read through their studies, their reports. They're not saying, oh yes, these categories can be used to help with food addiction. They're not claiming that at all but the newspapers, the media, by focusing on saying, oh, ultra-processed foods are the problem, ultra-processed foods are the problem. And then you go into the research and you say, oh, they're saying you can make these things at home and they're okay. That's the danger.
Florence:Got it, got it, so Right. So what they're saying is that when you, when you purchase it commercially, those exact same ingredients, if they're in a commercial product, are a problem, but if you integrate it into a balanced, moderate, healthy, balanced meal at home, that they're not problematic.
Dr. Ifland:And we know that in a severe addiction it's very easy to trigger a flood of cravings in the midbrain. So this is what a severe addiction is. It's a sensitive set of craving pathways and in the case of processed foods, all four of the major craving pathways have been sensitized dopamine and serotonin, and cannabinoid and opioid by different processed foods. To protect that brain from triggering from reminders, from stimulation, from smells, from cueing, from prompts, is much greater than somebody who either doesn't have the addiction or has it mildly or moderately. So if you have a severe addiction, you have to go. You know you have to. The protocol calls for protecting that brain from, you know, exposure to the substance, visual or olfactory or any kind of reminder. So the idea that somebody with that high a degree of sensitivity could have a healthy meal and then chocolate cake for dessert, that's deadly, that's just. The other thing is that addictions have as a component a uh, it's called minimizing and rationalizing the, the, the addicted brain cells. They have a voice of their own and they're always like oh well, we could have that, oh, we could do this. And you know, you don't have that so bad, you can do this, you certainly do that. So the this is what I'm hoping for in this interview.
Dr. Ifland:Florence is that we can head off this messaging from reaching the 80 of americans who are going to say, oh, it's just the ultra processed foods, we'll all make it at home, home, I just that will create such suffering in my framework because then they make this stuff at home. Well, you know, ms Weber said I could make this at home and be okay, and they continue to have loss of control and they continue to have the very painful consequences. You know, 93% of Americans have a metabolic diagnosis triglycerides, blood pressure, blood glucose or body fat. So you think you're trying really hard. Okay, I'm giving up processed foods, ultra processed foods, I'm going to make it at home and nothing changes.
Dr. Ifland:So, once again, what people internalize about that is I'm a failure. Everybody else is making this stuff at home because the newspaper said they could do that, but I can't. I am a failure and that is so painful. It's internalized self-stigmatization and the research on this is just hair-raising the damage of self-stigmatization. So I'm hoping that you and I together today we can say yeah, yeah, yeah, we know ultra-processed foods are terrible. Don't eat them. Don't eat them, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that you can make from sugar flour. You can make these breads and desserts and preserves and drinks at home. Don't think that.
Florence:Just don't think that Right.
Dr. Ifland:Like you know, you know you can't have that.
Florence:And you know the pain that it causes. Just because the newspaper says you can do that now we know better decide to get into my own kitchen and use those ingredients. They're not going to be different in my body, they're not. They're just not going to be different to my body. Now, perhaps, perhaps because I'm mostly cooking at home and I'm mostly using whole food ingredients and maybe, you know, I only occasionally, you know, use ultra processed ingredients. It makes it look like ultra-processed ingredients when they mostly eat.
Florence:Whole foods are, you know, are mitigated or manageable by a human body. But if you fall on the addiction spectrum which is what I think you're saying today if you fall on the addiction spectrum and you're contending that 80% of people fall on that spectrum, it is not safe to use any amount of those ultra processed foods because it can keep the cravings alive, which means that even though you're baking from home, you're making your own homemade pasta or whatever it is, you're not out of the water in terms of the negative consequences that inevitably unfold from the consumption of ultra-processed foods. That's well said.
Dr. Ifland:The thing that's shocking is so. I've been in conversation in my Facebook group about this and the thing that is shocking is that the thing that shocks people is that sugar is not in the ultra-processed food category. It is maybe it is, but it's in this culinary ingredients category and they're leaning in. I'm like are you trying to tell me that sugar is not an ultra-processed food? Are you trying to tell me that flour is not an ultra-processed food? That's insulting and I know that.
Florence:And it's just such evidence of how addicted we all are. Like we just can't even imagine what would we eat. Like we've got to have a little bit right. Like we could never eat out, we would never be able to socialize again. Nothing would taste good. Like it's all a big fat lie. But people, until they've lived the truth that whole foods are tastier, they are truly more satisfying, they we can fall as in love with them as we ever felt in love with the brownie. It just takes time. It just takes time and it's a journey back to that that connect. We can break up with the ultra processed foods, regardless of whether it's a journey back to that. We can break up with the ultra-processed foods regardless of whether it's done in our own home kitchen in moderate to tiny amounts or if it's done full on in some junk food. But yeah, sorry, were you going to jump in?
Dr. Ifland:No, you're so eloquent, florence, I appreciate you so much. You get to the right, to the heart of things. But there is one other thing I would like to say. My heart is with the food-addicted people, and I know, you know, 44% of this country is obese, and obesity comes with these compromised physical capabilities. So here's what I am not saying that you have to cook at home in order to get better.
Dr. Ifland:There are plenty of prepared foods that you can order that are clean, that are not going to trigger cravings. So you can go to the grocery store and get a rotisserie chicken and you can go over to the prepared meal counter and they'll have grilled broccoli and grilled asparagus and if you're eating a starch, they'll have clean, clean rice or clean sweet potato there. So I think that's another thing that just makes me sad about this whole idea that it's the ultra processed foods you buy in the store and if you cook at home, you're okay. There are plenty of clean foods in the store that you can buy. You don't have to cook at home.
Dr. Ifland:And I will say one other thing which I'm going for broke here, lawrence, you can just cut this out if you. If it doesn't work, there's clean fast food and it's it's a fajita platter. It's a fajita platter and you can do either just the beans and rice with the grilled vegetables and the fresh vegetables on the top, or if you uh, you have a choice you can get steak, you can get shrimp, you can get chicken and if you are incapacitated, this is being done to you. By the way, I want to add that this is the result of the tobacco addiction model that was brought to processed foods when the tobacco industry bought Kraft and Bisco and General Foods in the mid-1980s. And, to the NOVA team's credit, they're all over this. They write about the industrialization, about the politicization of food, etc. They're right on target there. But I know that you might not have the energy or the physical capacity to cook at home and you don't need to.
Florence:Right, yes, yes, yes, yes. Everyone should have their dear chef card. Maybe I'd share mine. I could share it with you, joan, you probably have one you've created for your clients.
Florence:But you just pass it to the waiver and it says I'm on a medically restricted diet. I can eat plain protein vegetable salad, cooked with no sauce, no seasonings, no sugar, no oil, just plain and simple. And then on the back it has a picture of protein veggies salad and then cooked vegetables. It's so clear, and I have little portions. Roughly four to five ounces of protein would be great, and you know that's if it's animal based, or you know a bit more for beans. And then, and then, yeah, and it's so clear, and you just, you just give it to them. And it says on the bottom dear chef, I know this sounds like like too plain, but I will love it, I will, I will love whatever you prepare for me.
Florence:Thank you so much, right? Oh, my gosh, I go tons of restaurants and they are you sure, I'm like, I'm sure, and I love it, and I thank them and I tip them and I'm like, honestly, I love. But I have done. I had. Years ago, when I was in my 12-step food addiction programs. I had a sponsor who wouldn't let me use any spice. No spice Like no nothing and honestly it was one of the best things anyone ever made me do, because it really does make you fall in love with the flavors of real food.
Dr. Ifland:Real food yeah.
Florence:I don't even need salt or pepper or Italian seasoning or cumin or cumin, as much, as those herbs are wonderful and fabulous and you're welcome to eat them. It really was a profound experience of realizing that this food is absolutely divine and delicious, just as is. But you have to kind of run that two-week experiment to kind of sort of believe me on that one. Well it does.
Dr. Ifland:It takes a couple of weeks for your palate, your sense of taste, to reestablish. So, just like cigarettes, processed foods mute your sense of taste. But I remember more than once somebody says wow, gosh, I never tasted an orange like this. Yeah, like that is correct. You've never tasted an orange like you're tasting an orange now, but it's the same orange you had a month ago.
Florence:Yes, yes, and the whole idea that, oh sorry, no, I think it just went out of my head. It's gone Back to the topic of ultra processed food classifications. You are not the first to sound the alarm. In fact, nina wrote this. Nina I always feel like I'm going to mess up her last name, tetch Holt. She's the woman who did the documentary about the demonization of healthy fats and anyway, so she's been all over this as well. There's lots of articles, there's people who have been sort of saying Nova, you're close, you're on the right track and not quite, not quite. And you're definitely looking at the lens of how incredibly careful we need to be about talking about ultra food addiction. Because if we look that up and we see these categories of foods that are okay to eat at home but not, you know, in processed commercial forms, you know food addicts are going to get tripped up and they will fail.
Dr. Ifland:I'm so glad. I'm so glad there's somebody else who sees this. Oh, yes, yeah, I think you know just from my conversations in my Facebook group that people you know here's the hard thing, which is that once you say to a food addicted person who is battling and winning, or battling and battling that, uh, be careful because, um, this system is telling you to use sugar and flour at home, the whole system loses credibility.
Florence:It yeah so that's the sad thing about this.
Dr. Ifland:The nova team is doing very, very good things. Yes, as I said earlier, they're not claiming that their system works for that this. So let's talk about what does work. Yes, and if you don't mind, I'm going to point to the evidence I spent. Uh, you know, I spent three full time, full, three full years, full time writing the textbook and it's built on 2 000 studies. I wrote myself 70 of it and got super experts to write the other 30.
Dr. Ifland:There is is a full chapter, it is chapter six, and it lays out all the evidence for sugar and any other kind of sweetener, for flour, for excessive salt we have to eat some salt, that's an electrolytes issue, but excessive salt activates the same pathway as morphine and dairy. Dairy has four different kinds of casomorphine in it. It's designed to put a baby cow weighing 100 pounds to sleep and it turns on weight gain genes. And excessive fat not normal amounts of fat, but excessive fat has now been shown to activate the same system as marijuana and caffeine, of course, and some food additives. So when you're looking for a classification system for food addiction, it's all laid out. I counted up there are 125 studies cited as evidence for the addictive properties of those classifications of processed foods.
Dr. Ifland:It does take processing, typically Now that's not true for high sugar fruits, or there's some people who can't tolerate nuts that have not been processed but for most part it's the processing that concentrates the natural endorphins in the plant typically plant, unless it's animal fat. But it's processing that takes the fiber out and grinds it into a powder and, you know, separates the elements or creates a liquid or a syrup that makes that, transforms the plant into an addictive substance. Kay Shepard did this brilliantly and it's the first page of her first book where she lines out the process by which you make cocaine and the process by which you make sugar, and it is the same process.
Florence:It's not cocaine, it's heroin, isn't it it's heroin? Is it heroin? It's heroin. Yes.
Dr. Ifland:We all know that. We all know that it's the processing, so to say. You know sugar's processed, I call it crystal alcohol. Flour is processed. It doesn't look anything like the kernel that it came from.
Dr. Ifland:So you know we know we know, florence and I are probably not telling you anything new, except that don't fall for this trap. The addiction is always looking for a way to assert itself again, to dominate the brain again. And if you read, oh, if I made it at home, your addiction is going to say yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll make it at home. Make it at home.
Florence:Totally, totally, totally. And you know what. Really, one of the other things that we know that works for addiction food addiction, sugar addiction, recovery is to just keep it really simple. And you know, like I, I think we underestimate humans. I know that when I share my meal plan it's like it's whole foods only. It's whole foods only If you look at it and there's ingredients. You know I recommend that you don't eat it. Nothing's been added, nothing's been taken away. The is um, some healthy oils. You could argue that the dripping of the oil from the olives is. You know, it has been taken away from the full. But the rare exception spices have been dehydrated, the water has been taken away. But you know, rare exceptions aside, for the most part just make your meals out of whole foods and then it's just so easy. We don't have to look at a list. It's like is it a whole food? Has anything been added? Has anything been taken away? If it's no, then you can eat it.
Florence:Obviously, in the beginning there's a bit of a medical intervention, sort of food medicine intervention. That can happen that when you go lower carb and you let go of the high sugar, fruits and the grains, and that can be really very helpful, but long-term, the goal is that all whole foods remain on the table. You decide what works for your own body. No whole food is bad. No, whole food is bad. I don't care what the carnivores and the vegans are saying and everyone in between that's fighting about whole foods bullshit. What the carnivores and the vegans are saying and everyone in between that's fighting about whole foods bullshit. But we need to understand what are the problematic foods. And they're processed and they're ultra processed no-transcript.
Dr. Ifland:I'm just so grateful for the clarity that you bring to the table, florence. I'd like to draw one other parallel. I talked to a lot of people who have tried moderate use. They've been in an eating disorder program that advocates moderate use and they've been crushed because they weren't able to do that. There's a good-hearted person, an eating disorder specialist, who is trying to tell them put it on a plate, cut it into four pieces, just eat one, put the rest away. And they can't do it. They eat that one piece, they put it away and then they go back and eat the rest and they come back and they report that that and they're shamed for it. Yeah, so I do want to point out I had a shock last week Early.
Dr. Ifland:I do public workshops sometimes and I had one study showing. It was a review article, which means they looked at a lot of studies and this reviewer looked at a lot of studies brain imaging studies of people with eating disorder diagnosis and what the researcher had found and he knew about this study was that it was very consistent among all kinds of quote, unquote eating disorders that the reward systems were hyperactivated, which is a symbol, a sign, an indicator of addiction. So hyperactive reward centers are a symbol of a sign of addiction. They're included in the description of addiction. So I was getting ready to give a public workshop on this and he thought, okay, this is a great study, I'll make five slides and I'll teach people to think about it in this way. That's consistent with the research. I said well, you know what, I'm going to go look and see if there's anything new. Boom, there, it was 17 new studies showing, in any disorder diagnosed people, these hyperactive reward systems.
Dr. Ifland:So when somebody comes to me and says, oh, you know, I was a failure at moderation, I can't do that moderation, I, I can't do that. Um, I'm like, well, it could be, because this research shows that you have these hyperactive reward centers and, uh, that abstinence when you think about you know, say, say, you're a person who's been, who's tried the moderation route and it didn't work. In a way, what the nova system is suggesting is a kind of moderation oh, you could handle this in small. And they do say they're not saying make a meal out of that cake. There's part of a of a healthy meal, which we can't do. We can't an alcoholic cannot have a glass of wine as a part of a healthy meal if they want to not be struggling with alcohol. I just wanted to point that out. This is another. It kind of looks like asserting that moderation would work, and we know, a lot of us know.
Florence:Right, right, right, and so many people use it. It's such a good point. There's two points I want to make. Is that so many people identify that they have an eating disorder. They've got that far. They know something's not right about my relationship with food. I'm either restricting dieting or binging or obsessing or something or fussing it's. I've got an eating disorder. That can be clear. But what might not be clear to them is whether or not there's an underlying food addiction aspect of this. That, if that's in play, start there, right Start there, get abstinent and see what's left over in terms of emotional eating aspects. That also might need treatment. That is different and over and above abstinence, which I think most of us discover is needed so well said Florence, it's so well said but the second thing I really want to say too is this whole.
Florence:I'm just I'm always wondering all these good people over there in Brazil trying to help the world understand what is safe to eat like, how can I turn? How can I turn, how can I protect my health and my children's health and reverse, you know, chronic disease that's tied to my, to the way that I eat? I wonder if part of that idea of a little bit at home comes from who wants to turn down a mom's baking, a grandmother's baking? There's so much love and memories tied up with the way that women have, for decades now maybe I don't know how many, maybe more than 100 years, I don't know have tied up food, baking, processed foods, these drug foods that make us feel good when we eat them with love, and it just breaks our heart to imagine that I can't have my mom's this at Christmas. It just seems so impossible to think of breaking up with ultra processed foods, even if our mom made it as a special treat. Yeah.
Dr. Ifland:I, I think you, there is. We're developing another approach to this whole question of abstinence, which is to build really powerful skills at recovery, at resilience. And I would say to somebody, if that's what's stopping you from attempting abstinence, attempting a clean food plan, because, you know it, at the holidays, someone you love is going to offer you a processed food oh, there are skill sets around that and you don't have to go through that by yourself and you can. You can have a skill set where you, you work with your beloved person beforehand. You can have a skill set where you, you work with your beloved person beforehand. You can have a skill set where you just like this is my decision, I'm putting my hand on my heart and you say I've got great recovery skills, I've got great resilience skills. I, um, I am going to choose between having this experience or not. I am powerful in this situation. And that's something else I think that we're not gonna talk about today, which is how important it is to be powerful.
Florence:The cat is out of the hat. I don't know what the expression is, but I think I'll tag onto that because this is new for me too, john. It's so interesting that you're saying that, because there is new for me too, jonah. It's so interesting that you're saying that, because there is an entire movement, a harm reduction approach to all addictions.
Florence:It's coming, it's here and a lot of it comes out of Maya Slavanovich. No Slavich's work. Her books are brilliant and she was the one that was really advocating for harm reduction approach. Stop doing the black and white all or nothing, because people feel like they're reducing isn't worth anything and that it's not a valid part of the recovery journey. And she says it is, and she was. It is right. It totally is.
Dr. Ifland:Send me that link. I'd be very interested in connecting on that. Oh my gosh, I'd be very interested in connecting on that. Oh my gosh. Skills If you have skills, you have flexibility and latitude, and I just couldn't agree more. I am done. I am done trying to conform to somebody else's definition of abstinence. I was in a group for eight years where that you were, your total value, was ascribed by how clean you were, and I'm not doing that anymore.
Florence:That's so interesting, so interesting. So let me get her name right, because her book is called Unbroken Brain a revolutionary new way of approaching addiction. I believe she's a. She's an author and a journalist and her name is Maya M-A-I-A. I always say that I worry I say this wrong. Slavitz S-Z-A-L-A-V-I-T-Z, v-i-t-z. Brilliant book, paige Turner, gripping, and she really speaks to the harm reduction and it has spawned, you know, harm reduction approaches everywhere, every addiction you can think of. I personally, I personally fully abstain. My definition of abstinence is no sugar, no flour, no sweetness, no alcohol, no processed foods. My food is so freaking simple for now, at this point, that's my definition. But I do build into my program that there are people can do a weekly exception, 24 hours, pre-planned um, and if that helps you stay on the path, yes, oh my god, it's better than being in the ditch, right?
Dr. Ifland:Whatever helps you, yeah. But I will say, like Florence is saying, don't try this without skill building and don't try it. And don't hear me say oh, now Joan says I can eat whatever. No, no, no, I'm not saying that at all. Build the skills, Build the skills, build the skills. Get in a good recovery community, get people around you. Don't try to just jump off the cliff by yourself.
Florence:If you can't make a successful exception, you can't make an exception yet.
Dr. Ifland:Yes, and if you keep flipping.
Florence:That's part of the journey. But yeah, there might come a time when you can make a rational exception and move on with your day and your life. Right, awesome, if you guys can do that, that's great. Maybe I can do that one day. I don't even want to.
Dr. Ifland:If you don't need to. The only time you would do this it would be if you're thinking I, you know you're thinking about that holiday and like, no, I'm not going to do this because I'm not going to disappoint my beloved friend, my beloved person. If that's what's holding you back, dang, get going right. You can be in a group you can be in Florence's group or one of my groups and you can be supported in you deciding for yourself what works for you all right'm just so excited about this now on many different levels.
Dr. Ifland:Can I just make one suggestion? Yeah, if you hear of someone advocating this position that the NOVA system applies to food addiction please push back, please. Yeah, just no. Just contact that person and say did you know that nova advocates using sugar and flour at home to make bread, preserves, drinks and desserts? And that is a direct quote from a 2018 publication by Carlos Montero. Just check it out with them. What I hear is that you're suggesting that, if I use these at home, when you say that the NOVA system applies to food addiction, you are agreeing that using these substances at home as part of a nutritious meal is okay, and please stop doing that.
Florence:Right, yes, until that definition changes, it just seems confusing, I imagine, for people walking the path of addiction recovery to hear that we're calling it ultra-processed food addiction. But the definition of ultra-processed includes moderation of refined carbohydrates if used moderately at home.
Dr. Ifland:So, thank you, let's push back, let's get the truth out there. If you see a reporter in a media outlet, if you see somebody else espousing this, just please outlet.
Florence:If you see somebody else espousing this, but really it doesn't even, dr Evelyn. It does not even need to be in the context of food addiction recovery. No human being should be left with the idea that an ultra-processed refined carbohydrate is safe to consume in any amount on any day ever. It is never going to be safe. Yes.
Dr. Ifland:So I'm going to give you an example. I saw an article where the reporter was going through inch by inch by inch, showing you, showing the reader, how to identify ultra processed foods in the grocery store. And of course they weren't talking about bags of sugar on the baking aisle or the bags of flour on the baking aisle or the bags of flour on the baking aisle Insanity. And you would just, you would just write into that reporter and say the NOVA system, did you know that the NOVA system excludes these highly craving, highly refined carbohydrates? And they just so. The next time you do an article about ultra processed foods, please remind people that eating them as part of a nutritious meal at home doesn't work either.
Florence:Yes. So push back, join us, please join us in this, like yes. And there's so many of us that are starting to push back against this definition and maybe Nova will hear us because right now they're taking the lead on this and there's good reasons, I imagine, for them thinking it's okay to have a little bit of baking at home. But they're wrong. They're wrong and not just for people who are food addicted. They just haven't taken that next step of recognizing that we're all terrified of breaking up with refined carbohydrates. We're just terrified of it, and it really is nothing to be terrified of. I'm going to end on this thought because everyone's so afraid.
Florence:I was so afraid that I was going to miss out on sugar, miss out on the pleasure of sweet. It was so pleasurable, so much comfort, so many memories. I have not missed out on sweetness. Once my taste buds recalibrated, I can be blown away by the sweetness of a Brussels sprout. I am not sugar sweet deprived. I have all the sugar I need and want in my beautiful, abundant whole foods. It's just that I have now been able to fall in love and feel satisfied by that amount of sweet taste and sugar. It's enough, it's more than enough and it was always enough for humans. We just need to all help each other get back there.
Dr. Ifland:Yeah, there's nothing like a really sensitive sense of taste and being able to taste that huge cornucopia of tastes out there, which processed foods blunt that.
Florence:Thanks Florence. Thank you, dr Iflin. I'm on the bandwagon, I will get this aired right away and I've everyone who's listening to this to jump on this bandwagon with us and maybe we should all start writing letters to NOAA. Get them, because if they could change that definition, we're safe again with that term. But until then it could be confusing and I appreciate your comment today. Thanks for your time. Thanks Florence. Thanks everybody for tuning in, bye.
