The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
Dr. Rebecca Williams: Why Your Addictions Keep Swapping & How to Start Healing
Do you ever feel like you’re just swapping one habit for another—whether it’s sugar, alcohol, or some other vice?
You're not alone. Many of us experience this “habit dance,” and it can feel frustrating when you’re trying to create positive change.
That’s why I’m excited to share this week’s podcast interview with Dr. Rebecca Williams, an award-winning psychologist and author. Dr. Williams has dedicated her career to mental health and addiction recovery, and in this episode, she shares simple, effective strategies to break the cycle and truly heal from within.
Episode Highlights:
- Why sugar and alcohol often substitute each other in our lives—and how to break the cycle.
- Simple, mindful ways to soothe your mind and body when cravings hit.
- How to reclaim your home as a sanctuary for healing and behavior change.
- Tips for navigating social events without feeling left out or pressured.
- The “SUGAR” acronym: A powerful tool for managing cravings and emotions in recovery.
- Rebuilding relationships and finding new ways to connect without relying on substances.
Whether you’re looking to cut out alcohol, sugar, or other unhealthy habits, this conversation will give you actionable insights to take charge of your wellness and make lasting, positive changes.
Ready to transform your life? Listen to the full episode now and discover the small steps that can make a big difference in your mental and physical well-being.
Enjoyed this episode? We'd love to hear your thoughts—share your feedback with us here!
Florence's courses & coaching programs can be found at:
www.FlorenceChristophers.com
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Welcome everybody to an interview today with Dr Rebecca Williams and let me tell you a little bit about her. She is a psychologist and an award-winning author of not one, not two, but three books. Now she has a new book out that we're going to talk about in the interview today. Her first book she co-authored with another therapist called Julie Craft, and the book is called the Mindfulness Workbook for Addiction. Now, how incredibly relevant is that to us? Very the Guide to Coping with Grief, stress and Anger that Triggers Addictive Behaviors, and it's entering its second edition, just has a second edition out. And her second book, the Gift of Recovery 52 Mindful Ways to live joyfully, beyond, beyond, sorry, beyond addiction. And her third book, which is the book that I I'm familiar with, is called simple ways to unwind without alcohol. Now, anytime you hear the word alcohol, you can just substitute the word processed junk food, sugar, shopping, anything.
Florence:Her areas of expertise are mental illness, addiction recovery and life challenges. So incredibly amazing that we have this expert with us today to talk about. Now, yeah, her books about alcohol. But honesty again, anybody, anyone on the addiction recovery spectrum or path and anyone on an addiction spectrum would benefit from this book. I think it's absolutely incredible. I almost consider it a Bible, like I'm thinking. I don't think there's anything left to throw at us as a potential tool to use to really sort of find the joy that you talk about on the other side of addiction. So welcome, dr.
Dr. Williams:Williams, thank you so much for having me, florence. I'm really excited about our talk today.
Florence:I've noticed many of us have noticed that when we put the sugar down, the wine comes up, or you know, others have put the alcohol down and the sugar comes up. They're all like a little cookie crazy. So it's very interesting how, uh, these two for some reason seem to dance. Um, and so it's good to be. Have our eyeballs on what can happen when we put one down the other will often start to become a problem. Before I go there, I'm curious to know why you've dedicated your career, your life, to the topic of mental illness, addiction and thriving in life.
Dr. Williams:Yeah, that's a great question, Florence. Yeah, I would say I've always been interested in psychology. I obviously majored in it in college and then I took a break and became a fitness trainer in New York City for a minute and then I went back and got a master's degree in counseling psychology at Harvard and that wasn't quite enough. So I pursued a PhD, always digging deeper into addiction, mental health recovery. I have a lot of addiction in my family. A lot of people I know do Some of my best friends have addiction in their family. So we kind of have this cohort of people psychologists and other mental health providers that were like saying we've got to kind of add to the resources that are available for families, individuals and, you know, any one of us who gets into that rough zone where you're, as you said earlier, where you're craving sugar or alcohol instead of using other ways to cope with life challenges. I mean, right, we all have them.
Florence:So, yeah, Did you personally have an addiction recovery journey?
Dr. Williams:I personally did not. I drank just alcohol, just like you know. Wine, as you mentioned earlier. Just like the next person, my family members did have addiction problems. So I saw it firsthand for 20 years or more, and that was my foray into figuring things. I like to. I like to solve problems and I like puzzles, so it's like I was constantly trying to figure it out. So I haven't had a drink in a couple of years. I even went to France believe it or not, Florence and did not have a glass of wine for two weeks, which is not easy to do in France.
Dr. Williams:So we'll talk about how to maneuver when you're going to events and stuff, not eating sugar and not drinking, and trying to figure out ways to take care of yourself. So, yeah, that's my journey and, like you said, my co-author, Julie Kraft, and I work. She's a marriage and family therapist. We work really well. She works with the families, I work with individuals. So our synergy was amazing in the first two books that you mentioned and we still have a beautiful relationship even now. This has been 12 years since we wrote our first book.
Florence:Wow, incredible. Yeah, there's something. There's something. And this book. I was saying to Julia like I think it's absolutely brilliant and I asked her if she wrote it herself, like or did you get some really awesome ghostwriter? She's like, nope, I wrote it. I wrote it. But it reads like you get it like that that this is a personal journey and for some people, having witnessed you know, individuals with addiction struggle and create trauma and right that that's enough sometimes to scare us off like not going down that path. I want to figure out what the heck that's about and I wonder if it spared you walking down. I guess you never know. Hey, that witnessing it was enough for you to go. I'm not going there.
Dr. Williams:Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I think witnessing it, seeing it firsthand, trying to make sense of it, was enough not to go down that particular addiction pathway. Obviously, a lot of us have had sugar addictions and other other, you know, collateral addictions that we've I've been trying to manage as you talk in all your podcasts shows. So, yeah, I think we all. I mean this. This book, simple Ways to Unwind Without Alcohol, is really for the person who's maybe like you or I, who maybe doesn't have a full blownblown addiction but wants to make a behavior change. And how do you do that when everyone around you is drinking or using sugar, of course? So that was the impetus for me and my publisher to kind of get clear about what's needed for the rest of us. I mean, there's 25 million people who do have an addiction problem, whether it's alcohol or drugs. And then there's the rest of us who are like right on the edge there and trying to figure out how to make a behavior change, and so that's kind of how everything dovetailed together for this particular book.
Florence:Yes, yes, okay, awesome. Yeah, there's people that fall hurt because you're not fun in that way anymore. You know, like all that's so real for people who give up sugar flour, in our case, um, sugar flour, sweeteners, alcohol are typically what people who work in the sugar addiction, food addiction space recommend that we give up because we know, we know we're going to spare you, okay, years of of unnecessary know, we're going to spare you years of unnecessary research. You're going to put the sugar down, the flour is going to come up. You'll put the flour down. Maybe, maybe, maybe the sweeteners and the flour are still in play and all of a sudden you're drinking diet coke or you're doing stevie off the charts and it's just escalating there. And then let's you get those down and you haven't closed the door on alcohol. People are like I didn't even know. I liked wine. I'll be like no, exactly.
Dr. Williams:Wine is delicious, by the way, so I can understand, so totally get it.
Florence:Yeah. So it's just good to know coming out of the gate that somehow sugar and alcohol seem to kind of substitute for each other. I don't know if you'd like to say more about that.
Dr. Williams:Yeah, I think that's really a great jumping off point, because alcohol as you know, Florence, is made up of sugar, which is why you said you know you put one down, the other one pops up. Alcohol is a process of fermentation Grains turn into beer, vegetables, like potatoes, turn into vodka and all the things that we like, like fruits, turn into delicious wine. So we're good at the front end the grains, the vegetables, the fruit but fermentation turns into alcohol. So alcohol is dense in calories. It does add weight, it does affect your liver. There's clear indications of that. That's nothing new.
Dr. Williams:So when you start taking a break from alcohol, as you mentioned, the sugar cravings are going to go through the roof. That's normal. That's the body trying to regulate itself with dopamine and all these other important chemicals that are going on in the system. So I do recommend probably like you do is like to watch out for it, to be curious and assume that it's going to happen. And when it does which it will definitely happen, right, to give yourself kind of ways to cope along the way. So when you get to that point where you're craving sugar because you put down alcohol, assume that there's ways to handle that. And your podcast is a beautiful starting point and there's other great ideas in the book to really prepare for the cravings. If you can do that, you're way ahead of the game.
Florence:Right, right, anticipation, so you've divided your book. I might just dive right into the book, if that's okay. Yeah right, anticipation, so you've divided your book. I might just dive right into the book, if that's okay. Yeah, sure, yeah.
Florence:So I like how each chapter is like a broad category. So chapter one is start with soothe your mind, like how to work with the mind. Engage your body is chapter two how to work specifically with the needs of the body, loving your home, like the impact of your space, your environment. But that impact can, for better or worse, impact your journey of finding other ways of unwinding other than sugar, flour, whatever our thing is, rediscover nature, nurture our relationships. That's a really rich section because I think that it can be one of the things that holds us back from deciding not to drink or not, you know, eat processed foods, because we think, oh my gosh, all of my socializing is done around both. If not, you know one or both and you, just you panic. You're like, what will I do with myself? Will I be? Will I be the odd person out? Will people think differently of me? Will I be less fun? Like it's very real, and so some people will choose to only consume them when they're socializing, because they don't want to have to navigate that awkwardness, that distress around that. So it's a really wonderful chapter.
Florence:Chapter six reconnect with your work. Like looking, that's another one. You put the sugar alcohol down, working, come on, it's so funny, it's like we play whack-a-mole with all of these sort of like behaviors that we recognize are still still efforts of escaping, running from activation in our systems discomfort, distress that we haven't learned how to meet and greet yet. And this book is about learning to meet and greet our body and our lives and our emotions and our thoughts in ways that allow us to befriend them instead of fear them and try and suppress them. Chapter seven she's got this cool little chapter on nutrition, hydration, food and drink and we'll circle back around to an acronym she did with sugar, like what to do with sugar cravings when they come up. So she's got a little tip for each S-U-G-A-R. So we'll go back to that, talking about how to reconnect and work with your embrace, your family.
Florence:Chapter nine is the money piece. The money piece is big. It is an incredible source of stress and so many of us will fall into the trap of just trying to work harder and that feeds the work, um, instead of like turning to look at the fears and figuring out, practically speaking, what we can do and meet. Meet that, you know, financial, financial challenges in a sensible way that settles the nervous system, allows us to solve problems and get our needs met. And the final one is about celebrating our spirit, and chapter part 47 is. Tip 47 is get your art, on which it's amazing, give a little goes a long way. I mean, I can't think of anything missing in here. It's absolutely incredible. Anyways, okay, so let's go to the very first chapter you start with soothe your mind. Why is that? Why did you start there?
Dr. Williams:Yeah, yes, the mind, yay, my favorite topic. Yeah, I'm a psychologist, I've been one for 25 years. I believe that we can all just take care of our mind just a little bit better, and it's a day to day practice and experience. So I started the book with soothing the mind, because once you have a handle on your decision making, then you can make decisions about all the other things that you mentioned in each chapter the money, the home, relationships. So the mind is impacted by alcohol and sugar, clearly. So alcohol disrupts how your mind works and it really does nothing to help with your decision making. So I really want folks to kind of get re-engaged with their mind and there's a couple of ways to do that. Also, the mind with alcohol on board. It affects your mood, so it affects your feelings, it kind of affects everything. So you can go from being angry to agitated to sad, to lonely by drinking. I mean it's strange, but I'm sure most of us have had that experience. So I think the mind there's simple ways to kind of re-engage with your mind and I like the simpler the better in my opinion.
Dr. Williams:So I'm a big fan of meditation. I've been doing it for many, many years. I started out awkward and confused and then I eventually settled my mind down and I'm actually on a cushion for five to 10 minutes every morning and that's really helped my mind settle for the whole day. And then part of that meditation, which is basically just kind of calming, like you said, the central nervous system down. We do that with breathing and so if you're in a rough patch in the day or you're on your meditation cushion or you're trying to have dinner when other people are drinking and you're not drinking, the best thing you can do is breathe, inhale through the nose, exhale through the nose. Now, no one is going to know that you're doing this at the table.
Florence:You know it's only you and you right.
Dr. Williams:And so I think the key is to say what can I do this evening or this morning to calm my mind down? And I always my go to is always inhaling and exhaling. Keeping it real simple three to five times it will keep your nervous system a little bit better managed and then you can make a really good decision about whether you're going to drink or have a dessert or not that evening. So big fan. And then of course, I write in my book. You know everyone talks about befriending your inner critic.
Dr. Williams:I'm not a big fan of the negative word of critic. I like the idea of befriending your inner critic. I'm not a big fan of the negative word of critic. I like the idea of befriending your inner therapist. All of us have an inner therapist inside. That is that little person or that little voice on your shoulder saying slow down, pause, take a moment, relax and then move forward with your decision making about what you're going to do or not do in this particular instance. So it's really just the kind voice inside our head that gets kind of numbed out with alcohol. I'd like to re-engage that with people and make sure that they listen to that inner therapist I'm a big fan of intuition, I think, probably similar to the to what you think, where, if something doesn't feel right, pause, take a breath, listen and then you can move forward, you know, with a clear mind.
Dr. Williams:And then the final thing in the book that I think is really important, very difficult to do is having a social media detox for your mind right. So a social media and bad news detox means that you, if you choose to take a break from being on social media for either one day a week or my favorite, which is 30 days, so notice what happens. At at first, you're going to feel you know you will have to delete your apps. No, don't tell me to do that, I won't do it. Um. So, yes, it will require you to take a breath from you know the whole thing delete your apps, whatever you're on, and um, for 30 days. Tell your friends you're going off air for 30 days or whatever the situation is. Tell your family you're okay, you're just going to take a breather and then see what happens to your mind. If you can get your mind back on track and feel more relaxed, then, of course again, you can make really awesome decisions about your behavior changes.
Florence:So what about that inner critic, though? So I sometimes have access to my so-called inner therapist, that kind voice that's wise and gentle and quiet, and we'll say let's just take a step back and let's think about this, let's pray about this, let's take it to meditation, like all those sensible, let's go for a walk in nature, let's see what the hot shower brings in terms of perspective on how to solve this problem, instead of rushing in. But more often, I would say that my critic jumps to the front of the pile with all of it sort of like uh, petty little points about mistakes I'm making and how I'm going wrong and everyone else is doing it better, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So if it's a louder, more rambunctious, more active voice, like what would you recommend for those of us that have an inner critic that trumps our inner therapist?
Dr. Williams:Yes, yes, I would say that's pretty common and don't beat yourself up for having an inner critic. Do you know what I mean? That's the first step. But that soft, quiet voice behind the critic is the one we want to get to. So if there's a chance, you can say okay, write down the stuff your inner critic says, put it in your journal and put it aside, and then, on the other side of the page, write down the inner therapist stuff. And so, in other words, your inner therapist is like almost like your best friend, going like hmm, maybe take a break today, florence, or maybe you need to take 15 minutes to go outside, or whatever.
Dr. Williams:The coping strategy is to decrease the stress. That's that little best friend inside of you that's saying you know, you had a rough day. Kind of, give yourself a break today. You know what I'm saying. So it's okay to have an inner critic, but it's also very important to develop an inner therapist along the way. And eventually, the way, just like the sugar cravings, I do think that the inner critic will go down and that the inner therapist will pop up a little higher, and it could be 10, and that's cool.
Florence:Um, and I'll go for 10 inner therapist any day um that best friend inside your head I really like the idea of sticking uh, sticking the inner therapist on the inner critic and to say, okay, you guys work this out here, so the inner critic can say all these things, and then the inner therapist say, ah, I see your point and yeah, you know there's something to that and here's my perspective and you can let them kind of duke it out on your behalf.
Dr. Williams:I like that idea.
Florence:That's really cute do it on paper, like what would my inner therapist, what have you got to say about this inner group? And just sort of allow us to step back a bit, not get all all wound up, exactly. Um, so, 50 ways to unwind without alcohol. We're just going to say 50 ways to unwind without alcohol, sugar or any sort of other self-harming behavior. Um, give us other tips. What are the things would you like, uh, the audience to know about ways that we can unwind without our substances?
Dr. Williams:yeah, well, you mentioned, um, loving your home uh, one of the chapters I'm a big fan of that. Especially post-co, during covid and post-covid, I think we all got a little out of. You know. We all got a little mentally unstable and confused and our home became kind of a little bit of a dumping ground of stress, anxiety, confusion, maybe illness, recovery from illness. So there was a lot going on in the last couple of years and now we get to re-engage with our home again. So, especially when you're cutting down or quitting alcohol or sugar, your home takes on a new dimension and it's an important, super important dimension. It's called a sanctuary. Changing of behavior is going to be your go-to for all of your healing. Anytime you have a rough day outside in the world, or if you're recovering from an illness or whatever the situations, or you have an awkward relationship with a friend that goes south, any problem, your home is where you're going to heal and recover. So in terms of a tip, I really, really want folks to kind of look at their home in a new way. There's ways to do that. Feng shui is one way that I really like, and there's a ton of books and research on the importance of that particular Chinese strategy to change the furniture, move things around a little bit in your home so that you feel good when you come in the door.
Dr. Williams:Obviously, decluttering is really helpful for your mental health and for releasing any stress related to decision making. So I take it a step at a time with decluttering. It doesn't have to be the whole house or it doesn't have to be the whole apartment, it can be. My biggest thing is the refrigerator. So when was the last time you cleaned the inside of your refrigerator, the outside, the panels, the drawers? It's been a while right. So start small and start with kindness. And the fridge, for both you and I, is really about you're going to put nutritious stuff back in after you clean it. And and when you clean your pantry, maybe you won't put the beer back in the pantry, or maybe you'll put it away, or maybe you'll get rid of it Like I did. I gave it to the workers who were working at my house. They're like great, six pack of beer, you know, and I'm going like you know, okay, but that was how I kind of was kind to myself and got alcohol out of my house, which I do think is important and similar to sugar, you kind of have to get it out of your house, at least as best you can.
Dr. Williams:And then I'm a big fan, as a lot of people are, about adding music that maybe you haven't listened to in a long time, maybe some music from the 70s and 80s, when you were feeling good before you got all stressed out. You know, go back in time, find the music that feels good and use that music to declutter and do your chores and kind of get a whole new vibe going for your sanctuary. If you can kind of wrap your mind around that, it'll feel really good to be home. Finding a corner spot in your house for meditation and journaling and reflection is critical as you make a behavior change. So when you're decreasing or eliminating sugar, you're going to feel a little bit restless.
Dr. Williams:What do I do? Where do I go? Your corner spot will be where you go. All your fun things are there your plants, maybe good clean food, maybe a candle, books that are a journal all the things that will help you feel good will be in your corner spot, and so that's a beautiful way to reclaim your home and to feel good again. You know, which is what we're all about.
Florence:And for me I think my home is, generally speaking, a sanctuary but I have a zen den in my home and that the room has had to be shifted.
Florence:At one point it was upstairs and then my daughter came back from travel and it was the best room for her, so it shifted downstairs and I kind of have a zen den, spare office and it sort of, but I it takes the pressure. I can always keep my zen den exactly as I need it for that sanctuary uncluttered, clean, clear space, my, my journals there exactly said, my meditation cushions there, my JBL speakers there, for when I listen to my meditation, music or whatever I'm doing, and, um, I, my body knows it's there and my body body knows that when I go there it's silence, it's quiet. It's time to just push away all the demands on the system. Like I guess it's kind of like people who have trained their brains to hear a song and they know, oh, that's the song I listen to when I nap or go to sleep. Right, it's like my body knows when I'm in that space it just really quickly moves into that relaxation state which can be hard to get anywhere else, even in my other parts of my house.
Dr. Williams:Yes, it's a beautiful thing to make it an automatic feeling when you walk into your Zen Den. I like that phrase too, the Zen Den. I think if your listeners grab onto that, I think that'll be fun. And look up the word Zen, look up, you know, figure out. Is this for me, is this Zen experience, which is basically calming, relaxing? Is this something that's going to help me going forward? And so I agree, I have a similar space and it didn't start out mellow like that. You have to develop it right. You have to slowly bring in things that make you feel good plants, and, strangely enough, your animals will start coming in, your kids, everything all of a sudden, the cats there and everything sort of. They all feel the experience that you feel and they like it, and so it's, it's very wonderful when, when, that all that, that synchrony, happens and you do feel good in that zen experience and I had to get rid of a bed.
Florence:It's in the garage still. I had to get rid of. First it was a double and then it was down to a single, because I it was like the spare bedroom and I cleaned it. There is no spare bedroom. There's a wonderful couch in the basement and we'll bring the the single mattress back out if we need to put it on the floor and people can sleep there, but I clean. So even if you're like, ah, but there isn't a room for me, find one 100%.
Dr. Williams:I 100% agree. Yes, find one for you and there's a purpose. It it's not just random like I need this, it's like no. The purpose, the intention that we're working on today is really to reclaim your mental health as you make a behavior change, and the best way to do that is to reclaim a space just for you and maybe your cat or dog in the house that feels like your heart is healing there, because a behavior change, like cutting out sugar or alcohol, is significant. Our societies are very. There's a lot of pressure. I mean, just going to a book club, it's like all of a sudden there's wine on the table or there's snacks and there's cake, and you know so. Any event that you go to causes a little bit of distress. So having a place to come back to is really going to keep you on a beautiful path of health.
Florence:Yes, I so agree. And what other tips would you have for people who are looking good ways to unwind without our substances?
Dr. Williams:Yeah, I have a lot of beautiful tips in the book. The ones I think that you brought up earlier which I really do want to maybe we can circle back to now if we have time is the friendship stuff. If you know, this is a whole podcast, just this one topic. It's very important and this is a whole podcast, just this one topic. It's very important, and this is chapter five in the book. But because your friendships are going to be changing as you change, you're going to have to we all are going to have to create new ways to have fun, maybe even have new friends, maybe even learn how to communicate in a way that is helpful for both the friend and self. So friendships are going to be different. They're going to be awkward, it's going to be weird, it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be like oh, this didn't feel good. So having tools and tips of what to say to your friends is very soothing and healing, because you kind of have a game plan, just like deciding whether you're going to have a dessert at night or not. I mean, it's really like a strategy. You need strategies, even for friendships. So the strategies that I like to make you feel better in your friendship. Number one um, you have to be honest with yourself. Um, which means you have to say I am choosing a different pathway than my friends and it's okay, I feel good about my choices. Um, so honesty with the self is really really cool. And then, of course, the second piece, florence, is honest with your friends. This is where it gets a little tricky, and I don't know if you've had the same experience when you've cut out processed foods and your friends haven't, or you know it's. Is it a similar situation? It seems like it might be very similar, but having communication skills is going to be key. Having set ways of how to talk to people now that you're changing your behaviors is really important.
Dr. Williams:My book has, I think, four or five different phrases. I like people to practice those phrases and say I feel good not drinking. This is where I am right now in my life. This is my chapter that I'm working on. I really would like your support. If you can provide it, that would be terrific. Kind of a phrase like that, or some semblance of that, brings the other person into the relationship and they can decide can I support my friend or am I just angry at my friend right now because they're making a behavior change and I'm not.
Dr. Williams:So I think just acknowledging that friendships are going to change and I am a big fan of building potentially new friendships around non-alcoholic activities and maybe there's a similar thing that can happen with sugar, where you're kind of going to events where there's no sugar desserts or there's no unlimited whatever when you go out. I haven't been to one of those yet, but maybe they're out there. So I think finding friends that support you, that can do things with you that are fun, that aren't related to sugar or alcohol, is a whole new frontier and it's creative. It's like what am I going to do now without drinking or eating processed food? And it could be something weird, like you could go to the aquarium. You know what I mean. It could be like something way out of the box where you have never done this before. It's very odd, but it's something you can do with a friend as you talk and think and figure things out without alcohol being the center of the event.
Dr. Williams:So, as you probably can guess, everything includes alcohol all the events and maybe desserts too. Everything that I've been to personally I live in Savannah, georgia every book club, every event at my health club, every event in the museums, every event has alcohol. So what do you do and this is where it gets kind of fun in terms of a strategy, and let me know what you think about this Bringing non-alcoholic beverages or non-sugar treats to an event. Treats to an event. I think it's necessary, but it's also strange and awkward. So what are your thoughts about kind of bringing something to an event? That is challenging?
Florence:Yes, yes. Two thoughts. One is I would never go to an event if, if I was thinking that I needed to eat there, I would know what was being served, I would call ahead, or I would have a meal prepared, I would eat. I just wouldn't eat, I don't snack. So it kind of makes my life easier in that sense. I don't have to worry about what anyone else is eating.
Florence:I've eaten, I'm satisfied, I'm full, I'm happy camper, I'm just there now to connect and I'm freed up, but it's a long journey of getting comfortable connecting without the little you know they call liquor, the liquid courage.
Dr. Williams:Well, sugar is no different.
Florence:It lifts our serotonin. It makes us feel more socially comfortable, confident, and so when that's not there, there's some growth to do around. How do I connect now that I'm so present and I'm not distracted by the brownies or, oh, do you think I could get an extra serving of those corn chips? Will anyone notice? Will anyone care? Like that's what I, how I used to socialize and then I'd get a little buzzy and then I'd be all sort of like social. But then I'm back to the food. I was really food tracking. I was very tuned into that and now I'm not tuned into the food. Now I'm figuring out how can I be present, can I notice what's interesting and beautiful about other people? Yeah, as opposed to how can I have a buzzy good time or how can I feel like I'm interesting to other people? Like it just shifts, that self-consciousness shifts, because that's the last thing we want when we're not, we're flying solo, without food or alcohol or something to take the edge off things is. We don't want to be more self-conscious, something to take the edge off things is. We don't want to be more self-conscious, and so we naturally learn how to just sort of be more interested in and care more about other people and connecting deeper ways. So the second thing I would say, though, is that, yes, absolutely, people need to know what we're doing, but I would never tell anybody that. I would never give the advice to anybody to say, oh, I'm not eating sugar right now. People are wiggy, rebecca. People go wiggy about sugar, like you could say, oh, I'm not drinking alcohol, and they'll go, oh, that's too bad for you. Okay, I'm not eating gluten, I'm not eating dairy, I'm not eating shellfish, I'm not eating strawberries, I'm not eating asparagus, like nobody cares. But the minute you say I'm not eating sugar, they're like what? So I would typically pick an ingredient in a dish that I'm going to pass up somehow, trying to be elegant about it, not be able to turn it down in a way that doesn't make anyone feel judged or defensive.
Florence:I will typically pick a different ingredient in there, like I might say, oh, you know, I'm so sorry, I'm pre-diabetic and my doctor's got me no fun foods for me, but that looks so, that smells so delicious. You have one, you have one for me, okay. Or I'll say I'm, I'm, I've discovered I'm allergic to gluten. It gives me migraines, and no one argues with that. But if I say I'm just eating sugar, they think I'm just being frivolous and ridiculous. And I'm on some sort of sugar-free bandwagon like everyone else, and it's so dumb and we can have a little and surely you want to try a bite. I made it just for you. Like, all that stuff comes into play when you say so I avoid saying that Exactly, I can see the pathway going south.
Dr. Williams:I could see the pathway going south because people you know other people have their own journey and their own defenses and their own feelings and we have our case of the feels ourselves. So it's all normal stuff. An event or a party, I think, is to me a kind of middle ground where you can say, oh, I just found this new non-alcoholic beverage, a mixer, and I want to see what you think about it. I've done that in my own house. I mean, I bring out the nice fancy cocktail glasses and I serve mocktails or non-alcoholic cocktails, and my friends were like, huh, this is pretty good, what is this again? And so they, they, they drink it and and they bring they've already brought wine over. I'm going like you know I'm not going to open that, you're welcome to um, but you want another one of these mocktails. And they're like you know what, actually I'd rather have a mocktail hold off on the wine and um, and they kind of start learning their journey about what tastes good for them.
Dr. Williams:Personally, I have no horse in the race, doesn't matter to me, I'm just trying to focus on having fun myself without alcohol at every event, and so that requires a little extra bringing your own drink Also at home, upscaling your bar and your wine glasses and making everything as cool as you can so when you do have friends over it's not like oh you know, here's a water glass with water in it. You want to kind of upscale your bar and I think that'll be that. That's fun, and maybe it's the same with upscaling your your desserts that are different aren't mocktails just full of sugar and not?
Dr. Williams:no, the, the um. The product I use is no sugar, no alcohol. It's called seedliporg, I think, seedlipdrinksorg. I've searched long and hard for, um, not a sugar-free mixer, and this is the one that works for me and um, uh, what you add into it? You can add, obviously, a tonic water which is no sugar, um, or whatever tonic water has sugar club soda club soda.
Dr. Williams:That's the one, sorry, I'm thinking of. Yes, yes, but we have club soda in the house and um, club soda and this particular mixer tastes fantastic at least they do to me. So, um, you know, we have to kind of be creative and try things, okay interesting.
Florence:Okay, yeah, what else would you like to share as a tip for our audience, for those of us that are trying to navigate life without those little substances that take the edge off life?
Dr. Williams:Yeah, I think you know we went back. You know we're going to go back and talk about sugar, the acronym sugar, which I think is a fun one to use as a tool or tip to reconnect with your nutrition and reignite your nutrition. The S-U-G-A-R thanks for finding on page 108. For me it's like, okay, that's where it is the S for in the sugar way to use as a tip if you're going outside or hanging out with friends. S is slow down when you feel the craving for sugar, and I'm sure you talk about this all the time in your podcasts. And here I do recommend returning to the breathing practice. If you're out and you have a craving, keep the breathing going, keep the inhales and exhales going. I mean, that's going to be critical for you.
Dr. Williams:The? U is understand what you're actually feeling, and this is a pivotal one. Especially as a psychologist, I feel like people kind of forget that feelings are normal and it's okay to have them and they're going to be up and downs, normal stuff. So understand what you're feeling. Are you actually hungry? Are you thirsty for water? Are you angry, sad, lonely, bored, tired. Hungry, angry, lonely, bored, tired. Those are the things that people in recovery have to manage. It's called HALT and that's very important when you're getting off alcohol.
Dr. Williams:The G stands for gain perspective and I like what you said earlier about you kind of when you go to a party, you want to connect and you want to kind of be an observer and kind of see what people are all about and then connect with people and I like that's the gaining perspective piece. It's like you're looking at people, you're gaining some perspective. What are you noticing? Be curious, no-transcript. The idea of doing something different when you're in a bit of a challenge. I like the idea of going outside if possible. Right now it's pouring rain here.
Dr. Williams:I don't know if you can hear it, but but generally speaking, you know, if you're in a situation and you feel a little pinched, just walk outside and just breathe for three to five times, gain perspective, and then you can come back in and kind of like I like what you're saying about interacting with people. Connecting with people, that's going to be key going forward. And then the R in sugar is reconnect to yourself with kindness. After an event or during an event, be kind to yourself, be aware if you're beating yourself up for something and just say, oh God, there I go again I got to be kind to yourself, be aware if you're beating yourself up for something and just say, oh God, there I go again. I got to be kind to myself and realize how sugar or alcohol can be impacting you and realize that it's. You know, it's a journey and I think your podcast if people listen to it every week, they will. They will get the practice under their belt of what they need to do and it's similar to what my book is about.
Florence:It's very similar, just to kind of take it step by step yes, yes, and you know that that idea of of when we put the alcohol and sugar and food down and we're now left in a room full of people that are potentially and we're very specifically focusing on the friends and socializing piece that can get really tricky when we put refined carbohydrates and alcohol down and I noticed that what I was actually reacting to often using food for is to settle the fear that I'm not safe. I'm not safe, I'm going to say something stupid, someone's not going to like me, maybe I don't fit or belong, or something like that. So when the food's down and I'm having to be present and I actually make a connection, connection, my body feels that connection. All of a sudden, the very thing that I was using food for is actually dealt with, because I'm such a lovely conversation with Rebecca and now I feel like I know there's at least one person at this party and I have a little connection with Rebecca. That was such a night. It was so nice to hear about her grandkids I don't know if you have grandkids, I'm making this up, but you know what I mean like.
Florence:So and all of a sudden my body can start to feel a bit safer and that's when socializing becomes a special and nourishing to us as opposed to quite as most of us. Our bodies are quite stressed. Is this gonna go okay? Is anyone gonna be mad at me? Am I gonna say something dumb? Will I fit in? Will people find me interesting? Do I look okay like? All of that is going through our heads in social events most of the time, not always, obviously, with inner, inner, inner circles, hopefully our guards are dropped and we're just who we are and we feel safe and loved. But broader social events, no, it's very. It's terrifying like. And we don't always know that it's terrifying, we just know that we kind of overdo things that socializing around the food and the alcohol until we put it down and then we realize, oh, I'm really afraid I'm not going to be liked.
Dr. Williams:Exactly. It's great that you drilled down to what the actual problem is, which is being fearful or being shy or being afraid. And, believe me, everybody has the same feeling feeling awkward. Am I going to fit in? Every single person at a party? Every single one is feeling the exact same way. So I usually start like saying boy, I feel really nervous at this party for some reason. What about you? How?
Florence:are you?
Dr. Williams:feeling and they'll say, yeah, me too. Or I'll say I feel like I want to leave, but I don't want to leave Isn't that weird? And so they'll be like, yeah, I had that feeling when I came in too, and so that's the connection which I love, that you're bringing it to the surface, and I really think that's going to help that connection. Those connections are going to help you continue to make cause. You'll feel good, you feel happy when you make a connection. It'll help you make good decisions about your. Your. Your behavior changes, and to me, I feel the same way you do right now. I feel like I feel strong. I've talking to Florence, I feel good. I have no desire to snack or drink or do anything. I just feel I feel good and I can. We can be here together and just have the experience of feeling connected, and that's to me, that's gold, especially as I get older. I feel like that is everything.
Florence:And in fact so many of us start using food so young because there wasn't those safe connections, there was insecure attachments, there was maybe conflict in the family, and now, as adults, when we put the food down, we get to go back to what we missed out on, which is these safe, nurturing connections that feel really special in ways that maybe have eluded us up until that time, or just get better.
Dr. Williams:Exactly.
Florence:There's one more thing I was going to say about feeling safe. Oh, I know, I know I was going to say that even if you look around the room and you think, oh no, rebecca's overstating it, like, no, that person over there, the one that's laughing her head off or his head off and his life at the party, they're not feeling anxious and insecure and it's like, oh, yes, they are. Sometimes that behavior is a response, like it's a compensation for exactly that kind of acute sensitivity or insecurity we can all feel. It's. It's more or less universal, unless we're you know, we're in our really beautiful height, very, very safe in our circle. Yes, amazing. Well, I know you can't go all through 50 tips, but I want to give you an opportunity as we're wrapping up here. Is there anything else? Oh, did we get to the a and the r? Did we get to the r?
Dr. Williams:yes, I think we did, but I will repeat it recognize yourself, reconnect to yourself with kindness kindness, yes, of course, that was the last piece, which is exactly what you were just talking about being kind to yourself when you're out there. I just want to say one thing about what you were talking about, like before all this food and alcohol came into the picture, this processed food and alcohol, like I looked at pictures of myself as a little kid, like you know, five or six, playing Monopoly, you know, with friends, and I thought, oh my God, what a fun, happy, cute kid. I like that kid and so that's the kind of connection with yourself that we're hoping for. Just to kind of go back in time, look at pictures of yourself and say, geez, that's a pretty pretty even kid, happy, funny, very funny, very connected to other kids, and if you can kind of capture that just for a moment, it's a very wonderful feeling and I do. I do like doing that personally myself, to have a picture of myself as a young kid and reconnect with that person before alcohol and all the stress and the processed food came into the picture. But yeah, in terms of, oh gosh, you're right, we can't go through every single strategy, but the book's there for folks who want to take a look.
Dr. Williams:I do want to mention, before we end this, um, the two important questions that I ask at the end of every chapter, um, they're pivotal for behavior change. The first question I'd like folks to ask themselves is um is what can I offer myself today? So it changes every day. Sometimes you need to offer yourself. Maybe I need a morning off of work, or maybe I need to reconnect with my dogs, or maybe I need to take a nap or whatever you need to feel. Well, ask and answer what do I need today? And that will help you solidify yourself, feel grounded. And the second question is very important too, is what can I let go of today? And I love this question, especially as we've been talking about decluttering and decreasing fear and whatever else you need to let go for today. Oh, my gosh, if you're honest with yourself, what can I let go of today? Pivotal, very strong question and ask and answer.
Florence:Each day is different. Bring it to your Zenden and your journal with your mocktail or, in our case, water and see what comes up. And I think that's a really cool exercise to do like for 30 days. Every day, ask yourself, what can I do for myself today and what can I let go of, and just see how your body surprises you every day. Wow, I didn't see that coming. Okay, great, I think that'd be such a cool. Wow, I didn't see that coming. Okay, great, I think that'd be such a cool. And again, your point about coming into a relationship with ourselves that feels loving and kind and really truthfully, drugs and alcohol and sugar and processed foods and all of those substances they are an effort at self-love.
Florence:We're just trying to feel better it is self-love right, and so there's no point in being mad or hard on ourselves for attempting to do kind things that make us feel better, but we just need to realize that we got locked into this. One strategy are 50 other ways that we get to feel that we're being kind and loving and good and nourished and nurtured by ourselves, because that's our intention. It's just that we have to put that down. I had to put it down, rebecca. There is no way I would have even looked at those strategies unless I had created the void, because it works so well.
Florence:Food works well for me. I can restrict it, I can overeat it, I can binge it, I can get into the sugar like I can get into the nuts and the cheese and do whatever the heck my brain does with that, to sort of numb me or give me energy, like there's so many different ways that I can manipulate food. I didn't need any other strategies until I put it down. It was like like, not a go, I'm not pulling that lever. The void was there. And then I was pretty darn motivated to start to look at some of these other ways and then you realize, oh, they're better.
Dr. Williams:They're better. How did you get to putting it down and finding the strategies that worked for you? Because I think that's really critical.
Florence:For me it's kind of like the classic 12-step I hit bottom. I'm done with this. I never want to binge again. I never Rebecca. I never Dr Williams. I'm sorry, I should be calling you that Dr.
Dr. Williams:Williams.
Florence:I shouldn't. I never want to binge again, I never want to eat sugar again, and it was just this burning truth. And then what you do is you get support. I do three meals, no snacks. It is a very clean, simple meal plan. So clean and simple that I know immediately when something's going funny, when there's some part of me is trying to pull the food lever to try and do something and I'll just say nope, but what do you need?
Florence:What do you need? Or it's just, it's a very hard note. And then that leaves the vacuum and I'm not feeling great. And then when I try meditation not the first time, not the 10th time, but usually over time my body starts to go Ooh, I did feel better. It has a lived experience of relief and it remembers that, remembers the walk in nature that it did. I did feel better after it. But there's no way, when it's comparing a brownie to a walk in nature, it's going to go forget the walk in nature, fuck the bath, I don't care, I don't care how bubbly it is and how lovely and hot and all the candles and she she crap.
Florence:Give me the brownie right. But when the brownies off the table, the body is willing to go. Okay, I'll try.
Dr. Williams:Yeah, so that sense of being curious about what you need at each day and every day is super different in terms of for healing. For you personally and I think it's been the same for me where it's like today is a different day and once I just let go of alcohol, I have no cravings right now, I mean, which is amazing, it's surprising, but you know, so I just I just say, huh, interesting, I guess I'll just take care of myself, I'll go to a yoga class or I'll you know whatever, whatever it is. But you're right, there is a moment where there's a vacuum, and that's where it gets a little bizarre, because you're thinking what am I doing? Why don't I just go back to my old behaviors? But the vacuum is like your best friend, it's like there for you if you can just hold on. You know what I mean.
Florence:It's the fuel for motivation. It's the gift of desperation. It's like, okay, now you're willing to try new and better ways of bringing self-soothing, being kind, feeling better. And none of them feel as good as the glass of wine or the brownie, not even close. But over time they feel better because the body learns that what's happening is I'm actually regulating myself, I'm not numbing. Yes, I'm feeling stable and present and more resourced and happier, and it's just, it's high versus happy.
Dr. Williams:Exactly. Well said. I couldn't have said it better myself. There's this deep inner sense of goodness and love that comes eventually not the first week or month, but it does come and it's a beautiful place to be, and then you just kind of get a wash in that and you just keep going back to it. This feels good. I'm going to go keep going in this direction. Very well said, yeah.
Florence:It's like brushing our teeth. The body wants to at a certain point. It wants that there's no effort anymore. At first it's effort. Let's go for the walk in nature. Let's sit down for five to 10 minutes and meditate. I actually like that. You recommend that people keep it short, because sometimes it seems intimidating to have to sit down for the full half hour or whatever. You think, oh man, that's too much. Just do five right until your body has this lived experience of.
Florence:I kind of like that and then it's like it's nudging you, it like, hey, what about our meditation this morning? Right, and it just feels easy, your body's on board, it's not this chore to do the right thing. Yeah, is there any final words you'd like to share today before we wrap up, dr Williams?
Dr. Williams:Oh, I just I'm just really grateful for you, I'm grateful for what you're doing, I'm grateful for our conversation. I feel really connected to you right now and to me, that's top of my list in terms of life. So thank you for that. And I would say to your listeners, I would say just be kind, proceed slowly, practice some of the things we've talked about in today's podcast and really just give yourself a moment of healing and keep returning to that moment of healing and you know, I think your listeners are going to really hit it out of the park. I'm proud of everybody.
Florence:Thank you so much for your time and for your books. Thanks for tuning in everybody, Thank you.
