The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
Dr. Tro Kalayjian: The Link Between Obesity and Food Addiction
Is obesity just about willpower, or is there something deeper going on? In this powerful interview, Dr. Tro Kalayjian, a board-certified physician specializing in obesity and metabolic health, reveals the critical connection between obesity and food addiction—and why most weight loss advice is failing us.
Dr. Tro isn’t just a doctor—he lived this struggle himself. From childhood obesity and food addiction to losing 150 pounds, he now helps others break free from the cycle.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ The science of food addiction
✅ Why stress, emotions, and trauma trigger overeating and weight gain
✅ How low-carb nutrition outperforms traditional diets for weight loss and reversing type 2 diabetes
✅ The flaws in conventional weight loss advice—and what actually works
✅ Harm reduction vs. abstinence
✅ How Big Food and outdated medical guidelines keep us trapped in the cycle of obesity
Dr. Tro is on a mission to change the medical system and provide real, science-backed solutions for metabolic health. If you’ve ever struggled with uncontrollable cravings, emotional eating, or failed diets, this interview is for you!
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www.FlorenceChristophers.com
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Welcome everybody to an interview today with Dr Tro. He is a board certified physician in internal medicine and obesity and his weight loss story. He has his own weight loss story. But it's not just a weight loss story. He didn't just, you know, have weight to lose, he also had a food addiction in play. He's one of very few doctors that can actually, when we tell them we're struggling to unhook and reduce our consumption of the junk food which, of course, most doctors advise us to do, they advise us to lose weight and to eat better. And when we tell them, oh my Lord, I'm really struggling with this, he's the kind of doctor go, I get it, I totally get it, but that's a thing. Food addiction is a thing and struggling, you know obesity is it can be a very difficult journey to walk. He came from an obese family. He was overweight as a child and he understands the deep emotions and the pain that can be involved in gaining weight and struggling to lose it and the complication of the food addiction piece.
Florence:He now has a medical practice focused on type 2 diabetes and reversing obesity and they just recently published a six-month study of their approach and it was published and there was incredibly impressive results and you can find this online and maybe Dr Tro will tell us how to find a study. The average weight loss was 38 pounds. People reduced their cardiometabolic risk markers, or A1Cs their blood pressure. They got off medications Unbelievable. His approach has been supported by seven different publications. It's evidence-based and he's right on the frontier. Right on the frontier of using lifestyle medicine and metabolic health to show the world, to show all of us, that it's possible to reverse type 2 diabetes and to reverse obesity drug-free not just using drugs, but actually eliminating drugs. So welcome Dr Trill.
Dr. Tro:I'm happy to be here, excited to be here. Thank you for having me. You know, having me back, I should say. I think two years ago I was a part of this. It's an absolutely amazing and large endeavor that you do and you should be proud to do this. It's such a help to so many and that it's free and accessible, I think, is also huge. Just kudos to you for keeping up the fight. I know you know eight, nine, 10 years in, it gets hard. It gets hard, but there's so many people out there that you know will have access to this, will hear from this, and you should feel really proud and I'm proud to be here with you.
Florence:Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, dr Tro. Let's go back to your story a little bit in case you're new to some folks on the summit this year. So you were overweight as a child, and so what was that like and what was your pivot point and how did you turn this around for yourself?
Dr. Tro:So it depends on how far you want to go back. I think that that's the. You know. I remember being four years old, running away from my mom going to the ice cream aisle in the supermarket, so running away from her and literally going, opening up boxes of different ice creams and eating them. And I remember sitting in the aisle, opening them up, taking the candies and stickers that they throw in there out, as I opened up, ice cream tasted one after the other. So that's what it was like being, you know, a four-year-old.
Dr. Tro:And then you know, I remember being eight years old and you know having, as a male having, and you know having as a male having. You know breasts really like, really excessive fat and you know I didn't notice it. It was the first time I really remember feeling obese. But the four-year-old was the first time I remember feeling ashamed of my appetite. And then, when I was eight, I was the reindeer in the school play running in place and when they showed us the you know the playback on a snow day of me, you know, in the auditorium during lunch or whatever. They showed back the play that we did on the big screen. I remember seeing my fat basically jiggle around on this camera and everybody laughing all at once. And I remember that memory vividly. And it wasn't the kids laughing that got me, it was the lunch lady and I remember the red cheeks she had and her blonde hair and short blonde hair. It was the lunch lady and I remember the red cheeks she had and her blonde hair and, you know, short blonde hair. He was the lunch lady who was laughing and was like, oh gosh, that's not cool, you know. So yeah, that's what it was like and you know I battled with it, my whole family battled with it.
Dr. Tro:I remember being 13, you know, weighing over 200 pounds and my older brother weighing well over 300 pounds. At the time, both parents struggled with obesity and went to the doctor and the doctor was like you're fat and you're going to be fat just like your family. And that was the moment, the critical moment. I remember that was where the arc changed and the trajectory changed, because I was like who the F is this guy to make me sit in the waiting room for two hours to just tell me to go lose weight? I'll show him I won't eat. So I didn't eat for a month after that because I was like, basically, f, dr Atis, you know I laugh about it now, but people can get that much worse than I did.
Dr. Tro:And then I fell into sort of veganism. I ate carrots and lettuce and Diet Coke for a number of years just to try to keep the weight off. But it didn't work. I wanted to be a kid, I wanted to run, I wanted to thrive, and just my body was calling for food. And so I lost weight at 13 as an anorexic kid, and put it all back on, and then some as an anorexic kid, and put it all back on, and then some.
Dr. Tro:And it was just constant battle of trying to lose weight and then regaining. You know, ultimately, college gained 20 pounds. Med school, you know, gained 40 pounds. Residency, gained another 40 pounds. And here you are, fast forward. You know, you're 30 years old and you're 350 pounds and you have pre-diabetes, you have fatty liver, sleep apnea, hypertension. Every part of your body hurts. Your mental health is not where it should be. You're just really a shell of yourself.
Dr. Tro:And I trained in a great program, an internal medicine program, a Yale-affiliated program. I was chief resident. It wasn't like I didn't have access to the most brilliant minds nurses, doctors, dieticians, psychologists. They would ask me are you counting your calories? And I'm like, yeah, I'm counting them, but I'm ravenous and I don't think you understand. You know, I would go through boxes of Kashi cereal. I would go, you know, whole wheat bread. I don't only get whole wheat. And you know it's funny, my wife was commenting, you know, because I asked her recently, like, do you remember what it was like, you know, 12 years ago, before we started, or you know? And she said, yeah, I remember we'd go to a restaurant, I would get the barbecue, you'd get a salad, like that was what I ordered Every time I went out. I got a salad, right, I got to show I was just thinking in the way they wanted me to, which is, you know, quote unquote have more grains, cut your calories, you know, eat plants.
Dr. Tro:And it got me absolutely nowhere. It got me like to just worse, a worse mental place or physical place. You know, and I, you know, on my board exam, I'm in internal medicine, I was the chief resident, which is such an honor, you know, and I'm scoring, you know, ridiculously highly. But but I lacked insight and nobody, not even the most brilliant person, could pass on insight to me because they didn't know what was going on. They didn't understand what my issue was. They viewed obesity as a budgeting issue and I had a budgeting problem. And this is the exact wrong way to approach obesity. The obesity model can best be explained by the addiction paradigm right, it is 100%. Why smart people, or people of any kind, maintain a behavior despite ill health. There's only one way to explain this in a systematic way and that's the addiction model. And that addiction model really hit me. You know I didn't.
Dr. Tro:I'm known as the low-carb MD doctor because of a. You know our very successful podcast with, you know, my partner in crime, dr Brian Lenskis. But I wasn't a low-carb. I had never had a steak. I never cooked a steak 10 years ago. I had no skin in the game. In fact, if anything, I leaned towards veganism as I'd had used that approach in a time where I had a very poor relationship to food approach, in a time where I had a very poor relationship to food right and I had, you know, stuck to the mantras of the, you know, eat less, move more, have more plant paradigm. So, if anything, I had no inclination to low carb.
Dr. Tro:The only reason why I topped at a low carb diet was because my wife challenged me. She said she was concerned for my health and she said we need to change. I'm worried that you're not going to be there when that really hit me. You know, it wasn't just on a spiritual level that it hit me, it was also. She played my arrogance. She was like look at how great of a doctor you are. You can, you figured out this diagnosis. You figured out that diagnosis. You're chief resident. You scored on the 90th percentile on your board exam. You can figure this out. So I was like you know what she's right? And I went and I read the literature.
Dr. Tro:I read it. I read everything. I read the textbooks, multiple textbooks on obesity, all the papers. I went and looked at the studies that powered the guidelines, the way that got me successful as a doc. I applied it to obesity and I'm like holy crap, this is completely backwards. Low carb always is better. You know, like if it was an antibiotic, I would have chose the low carb antibiotic because it always performs modestly better. So I was like, okay, I'm not going to do that stuff. You know, this is the evidence. I'm going to go with the evidence. So I started with a low carb diet and quickly. I realized when I had a patient and this is like the second paradigm shift for me, you know, the first was my wife challenging me and going back to literature. But the second paradigm shift happened quickly, as I was losing weight.
Dr. Tro:I had a patient come to my clinic who had alcoholism and I started asking him the PAGE questionnaire C-A-G-E Cutting, agitated, guilty Eye Opener. It's a validated survey for alcoholism and alcohol dependence and in my mind, as I was asking it in him, it's a way to bring out this problem in a safe way and screen for it as a clinician right, and I wanted my patient to consider this as a possibility for him. So I was screening him, but at the same time I'm screening myself. And this is nine years ago. Do you want to cut down? And I'm like gosh, I want to cut down. So, do you want to cut down? And I'm like gosh. I want to cut down, not on alcohol, but on food and processed food, you know, and sugary, sweet, carby food, right.
Dr. Tro:And then, geez, I'm like, do you get agitated when people tell you to cut down? Well, I'm like gosh. My wife has asked me not to eat that and even though I was 350 pounds and I didn't want to eat it. I'd be upset. Right, why? Because my emotions are. The substance manipulates your emotional response to maintain a behavior, right, so you get agitated instead of feeling gratitude. Right, If my wife tells me you should cut that down, I should be like, oh my God, you're so helpful. I want to lose weight, I want to be healthy. Right, I should respond with gratitude. But the addiction manipulates your emotions and so you feel annoyed and agitated and angry and stubborn and oppositionally defiant. So that question I was like wait a second, I get agitated. So now I'm two for two here on the screen that I'm doing for alcoholism to help a patient, but I'm two for two.
Dr. Tro:And then the next question is do you feel guilty or shameful? Now, what does that mean? Guilty or shameful? Of course I did. Right, I felt intense guilt and shame since age of four, and that means that your emotions betray you so frequently and you have this intellectual desire to be healthy and change and stop a behavior. But you're not Right now that you have psychological distress and that's why you feel guilt and shame. And there I am with my third out of four. I'm trying to help him and I am simultaneously discovering. Wait a second, there's something wrong here. And then the last one is the question is eye opener, you know.
Dr. Tro:And alcohol it's drinking at an earlier time. But with food it's a little bit different. It's feeling so compelled to eat that you know you maybe hide in sneak wrappers because you're afraid of the response, or you don't eat, don't eat in front of others and then binge eat alone. Or you eat before an event so that nobody will comment on how much you're eating there, or you're. You know you'll. You'll do good all day and then lose control late at night, sneak food, hide food, et cetera. So all of this is sort of compulsive eating behavior that's affecting your relationships in your life. And, um, and I'm like gosh. Now I'm four to four, and if this was alcohol, it's. You know, this is a done deal. I have a dependence and I have. So that was my second wake-up call.
Dr. Tro:As early in my career, about nine years ago or eight years ago, a year into my low-carb lifestyle, I discovered the truth, which is Going back to age four, something that was programmed with right. I'm programmed to seek out food voraciously, right, and now I'm left. Now I understand this all and I'm left to reconcile it. But it's hard to reconcile when you've, you know, blamed yourself for your obesity your entire life and you felt like you should have just done better, like've done everything else in your life. You know just that one thing you couldn't figure out food. Does that make sense? Does that narrative make sense? Are you to blame somebody who has discipline, willpower in other areas? Are you to blame, you know, when you didn't really know? Are you to my reason why I feel agitated, annoyed when somebody tells me not to eat something? No, I don't choose that. I didn't choose that. I didn't choose to feel guilty and shame. This is just how I felt. This is how my mind was working.
Dr. Tro:So this concept of lifelong self-blame, lifelong feeling inadequate, lifelong helplessness, it's gone, it's unnecessary. In fact, not only is it unnecessary, it's part of the addiction cycle. It needs to disappear. If you feel bad about yourself, what's the easiest way to feel better? You eat food. If you're upset at yourself because you gave in, what's the first thing you do? You know you need to feel good, right, and how do you feel good? You come back to the substance that's captivated you, right? So that was the second liberating movement. I know it's a long-winded answer. But you know, the first liberation was understanding the nutritional dogma and the second liberation was an inward. You know. First, the outward liberation like understanding the lies that our entire world is told because they're unable to really face food addiction right as a systematic problem.
Florence:And then the internalize. I told myself as a lifelong experiencer of this insatiable drive to keep eating Incredible. And I would say that that moment with the doctor was probably quite a pivot too, because I get the sense that with your drive and the way you perform through med school, that that that you just resigned, just you're going to be overweight Like everybody else. Like, don't even have hope, don't fight it, just surrender, just make peace with it. Let's just. You know like I love that you were so young when there was a part of you going no, that's not going to be my path. That might've taken you 20 years before you figured out how to break free of it. But some of us don't have those moments where it's like, no, this is not good. No, till, we're like thirties, forties, fifties, right. So it's so nice that in a way, you've got that.
Dr. Tro:I remember the minute, but it was so. I wish I needed mentorship there. Can I tell you? You know, I was in such desperate need of mentorship and it didn't exist. I mean the only areas that it may have existed. I mean, think about it, there was Weight Watchers, that was dieticians who said eat more grains. So I had no way to express my opposition and my rebellion other than just trying to figure it out, and that's no longer necessary.
Florence:Right, goodness that's obsolete, you know.
Florence:Yes, yes, it's like you had nowhere to actually direct all that fire and motivation into behaviors that would actually get you the results you were looking for. Right, you were spinning and I have to say you know, I'm very careful to to not come across as a summit that's anti-vegan. Um, there's, there is. There are people who don't thrive being vegan and there are people who can do vegan and thrive, but so much. There's junk keto. There's junk vegan. There's just ways of sort of getting into junk that I don't want it to be. You know how you're doing. Veganism probably included about a bunch of processed foods and junk foods still, unless did you do it like a hundred percent whole foods only when you were doing that?
Dr. Tro:Uh, it was more so. So let's come back, um, when we're talking about, I think, uh, a decided, uh decided nutrition paradigm I shouldn't. I'm also not anti-vegan, right? So I think, when we're talking about diet, there's so many issues at play, right? There's, you know, emotions and nostalgia. There is religion, and there is moral and ethical considerations, and there is-.
Dr. Tro:Yeah, certainly culture. And then there's nutrition, and then there's metabolic health and then there's obesity, right? So? And each of these has a different component. You know, the nutritional needs of somebody with osteopenia and mental health issues are different than somebody who has a strong moral proclivity to not eating animals, right? So the same substance can be harmful psychologically to one person and nutritionally helpful to another person.
Dr. Tro:So I think I appreciate the fact that you grounded me and not being and then giving me the airspace to sort of clarify not anti-vegan in any way. I think there is a strong sort of push to, in terms of the nutritional authorities and the medical authorities, to promote a plant-based sort of paradigm. That's grounded in several tenets and several ideas, one of which is the budgeting model to obesity, which is fundamentally flawed. Two is the potential environmental implications of plant-based eating. Opinion is that moral and religious grounds and cultural sort of proclivities, you know, if you have a fundamental, you know belief system, you should follow that. Above all else, Nobody should tell you what to do. So, yeah, 100%, not vegan bashing, if that's how it came off.
Florence:No, it didn't. But I think someone maybe might read between the lines and think that Dr Tro tried vegan and it didn't work for him. So therefore it won't work for anybody. But I just wanted to be extra cautious.
Dr. Tro:Yeah, I think. No, I think, look, you can do well eating plants. You know, there are people who can do well eating plants and there's people who don't do well eating plants. I mean, I don't think it was necessarily the salads in my case, or the green leafies in my case, I think it was the grains for me, or the green leafies in my case, I think it was the grains for me and the addictive nature of sugar and refined carbohydrate. So I don't think that same quality exists in arugula, right? So I think it's completely individual.
Dr. Tro:And there's one saying that one of my mentors said everybody can't eat everything. Imagine telling somebody with a peanut allergy that you should eat peanuts. Imagine telling somebody with a Lone Star tick bite, an alpha-gan syndrome, which is an allergic response to meat, that they should eat more meat. You know, I think diet is tricky, but I appreciate you grounding the conversation. There's no in between the lines. Here I have countless patients who are Asian, sub-asian, who don't eat meat, who don't eat meat, they don't have red meat, they don't have any animals.
Florence:And there are ways to be healthy in any paradigm you choose. Incredible Thank you for that. I want to go back to the fact that you were four. That's actually one of the most extreme stories of someone that young being that intense with processed foods, like actually ripping stuff open right in the store. Have you given some thought to why that addiction was so strong already at the age of four? Do you have a theory around that?
Dr. Tro:So you say addiction, right, so you're saying addiction. But at four, the only shame I felt was feeling like I shouldn't have been opening these boxes in a store, and certainly I don't remember my mom shaming me, right, and certainly I don't remember my mom shaming me, right. But when it came to that particular incident but I think this gets to the point of you know what is an addiction? Right, there is a strong biologic drive to have a substance, right? You know, if you haven't done this, go do this. Go Google goats on a dam.
Florence:Okay, just Google goats on a dam. Goats on a what?
Dr. Tro:On a dam. Okay, just Google it, you'll get a National Geographic documentary. And don't do it now, but their listeners can do it. Yeah, and I think this highlights the story very well. It's about a very old dam and these goats. You know this dam which is literally like a very steep stone structure hundreds of feet in the air, and these goats climb up the dam, the baby goats and the older goats. And if you look at these goats, you're in amazement. You're like these goats must be crazy. What are they doing? Like they just sit at the top of this dam and you're like looking at them and you're like in awe, because you're like why aren't they like? Aren't they scared of death? And if these goats and the baby goats and the mama goats and the papa goats were like on the floor and I chased them, I'm certain that these goats would run away. They would have an intact fear mechanism. But there's something suspending their fear, suspending their idea of consequence, suspending their fear of death. Right, there's something that's doing that. And they're up there. They climb this and their little kids climb it and the little baby goats, these cute little goats, climb it and they sit up there and they lick salt. That's why they're on the dam they're licking salt. That's why they're on the dam they're licking salt.
Dr. Tro:Now, should that baby goat be ashamed of itself for being driven to eat salt? Does the baby goat have a fundamental flaw in their brain that they are captivated by a substance that they have to eat? I don't think so. That they have to eat. I don't think so. I don't think there's any shame required here. I don't think there's any need for personal accountability.
Dr. Tro:You have this drive. There's no need for self-blame. It is what it is. You have a drive to breathe. Should I count my breaths in and out? Make sure they match up? I have a drive to urinate. Should I make sure I drink as much as I pee out and make sure it quickly calibrated every millimeter of the way? No, right. We have these bodily functions that we just relegate and outsource to our sort of lizard brain, and what people with obesity and food addiction have to understand is you're trying to rip this drive out, and it's emotional and psychological consequences, something that wants to go on automatic pilot since you were four. You're trying to rip out and understand. Don't think you're not going to have problems doing this. You will. And don't think you're going to win in fighting it? You're not. I can hold in my pee. I can hold it in. Eventually I will urinate, no matter where. At the end of the day it's going somewhere. Now I choose if it's going in my pants or in the toilet. Right, I make that choice through several actions that lead up to that moment. Right, and my understanding of how to manage my drive right.
Dr. Tro:To believe that I can just stop wanting to breathe is a fool's errand. You just need to accept you have this drive. It's not going away. It needs reconciling. You cannot live without breathing, you cannot live without urinating and you certainly cannot live without food or for long for each of them. Right.
Dr. Tro:So we were left with fighting or understanding this thing. So you can guide your appetite. You can guide it. You can't control it. I can't turn it off. I can't flick a switch and have it disappear. I can't look at that strawberry and say I just want one. No, I want them all. I no longer accept it would be foolish for me to think otherwise. I have 40 years of experience knowing what to expect. 40 years of experience knowing what to expect, right. And so once you fully commit internally that you have to strive to eat and you're not getting rid of it. The next step becomes what can I do to help it and manage it in the best possible way? And then that leads to the discussion that I think we were having when we started of harm reduction versus abstinence. But I think that that's the fundamental first step is acknowledging you're a food addict, screening for food addiction, acknowledging if you are a food addict and not everybody is.
Dr. Tro:You know my wife. You know we equally removed addictive substances, me and her. Okay, for the past 10 years. She lost 15 pounds, I lost 150. So those food qualities have an impact on her, but those food, those addictive properties, have 10 times the effect on me. Now, this variability is genetics. You remove an addictive substance from my life, you'll see 150-pound drop. When you remove an addictive substance from my wife's life, it's a 15-pound drop. The substance is the same. The effect on our brains is very similar, right, but the potency or the response is 10 times greater in me as reflected on weight. So everybody reacts a little bit differently.
Florence:But you know, I think fundamentally we need to accept we're dealing with something addictive, and that's step one the reason I asked that question is there's a book by a guy named Adam McArnold and it's called the affliction of addiction and he, you know, really like what is it? What is this? What is this affliction of addiction? And at the end of the day he said it comes down to two things. And it's this very elaborate book, like he's looking at it from all these different angles. Is it this? Is it? This is it?
Florence:And he goes it's two things, that's all. It's. How quickly and how intensely does it affect your brain? If it is a minor lift or shift in feel good neurotransmitters, you're not exactly going to be high on the addiction spectrum. And if it's slow to sort of kick in a really high pleasure response, take the edge off pain, give you some energy, make you feel great, it's not going to be your go-to substance if you're looking for some relief because you're going through adverse childhood or adverse experiences. But he says the combo, fast and intense, you got a winner. You got your brain and that substance. You got a winner, you got your brain and that substance. It's a fit.
Florence:And so he says there's a nature piece for sure, there's a genetic predisposition and there's a nurture piece. And he thinks the nurture piece is that some of us have, epigenetically, brains that have been coming from backgrounds of trauma, in the sense overwhelm. It's looking for help outside of its system because it can't regulate it on its own. It's looking for things in the environment to help take the edge and to rebalance the nervous system or to at least calm it or something, and that could be passed down and adverse childhood experiences can create and awaken that in the brain. And then there's just this genetic predisposition for the substance to click, to create the magical effect of a quick, intense opiate or neurotransmitter impact. So I guess I was just wondering when you were four, it seems to me that those you were already responding quickly and intensely to the pleasure of sugar and I wasn't sure if you'd wondered. Did you just think oh, it's just genetic, I, just me, and sugar, we work.
Dr. Tro:A hundred percent. I mean, if you look at my obesity genes, I mean it's, I have all of the ones that make you know, if I was a grizzly bear, right, I would win. I would win, right, if I was a grizzly bear and my family was grizzly bears, we would win. Yes, is generational trauma part of that? Certainly, in the same way that grizzly bears have generations of trauma. Right, it's a tough world out there for the grizzly bears, right? And I think there are certainly emotional factors and mentorship factors.
Dr. Tro:If somebody has overcome obesity or understands addiction, I think they're in a position to sort of guide a person with a little bit so maybe a lack of insight in my immediate, you know family into how to manage this and my you know, the healthcare community that I had access to. Yeah, and absolutely, if you look at childhood adversity, like the more negative stuff, the more negativity really in your life and the less community you have, the more you will seek out any substance whatsoever. Right, because you're you know whatsoever. Right, because you're you know, again, it comes down to biology. We seek out good and go away from bad, right, so you will go away from bad and seek out good. So at four years old, I was really good at going away from bad and seeking out good right, and I don't. I think that there's an interplay between psychology, emotions, generational trauma, biology, genetics it's all at play. Bottom line, it's leading you to eat.
Florence:So you have to.
Dr. Tro:So whichever one of those, on my wife the genetic drive is probably less, but I'll tell you when I stress her out or the kids stress her out, she's eating. So she has more of a sort of stress drive. Let's say so these you know, obesity is certainly multifactorial and the drive to eat and hunger and perception of hunger is multifactorial. And the trick is getting a team that understands that, that truly understands how appetite works, how sleeplessness drives up ghrelin, makes you more hungry, makes you more impulsive, how stress is the number one cause of weight regain. In our practice, thousands of remote scales and watching people and guiding people, the number one predictor of weight regain is acute stress, acute and chronic stress and lack of family support Number one and number two predictors of weight regain. So all of these things sort of matter and add up, but the fundamental unifying thing, I think, concept is just acknowledging that sugar is addictive and food is addictive. Right, it starts from there. You are driven to eat this thing, you are captivated to it against your choice, against your will. You can't unprogram that right or you can't unprogram it easily. And what you do with that information, where you go from there, you know, and how you seek out help and at what speed and when you're ready to change. You know these are all your personal agency, right, but I think fundamentally we need to, just as physicians I mean everybody in this seminar knows right, that's why we're all here. But now we have to power the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners to put out guidelines, working with Jen Unwin to get guidelines for food addiction and process food addiction recognized. These will be the next step.
Dr. Tro:We need organizations like the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners needs, which is a not-for-profit, like the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners needs, which is a not-for-profit. You know we need your help to. We need your support, financial support, right, you need to go find these medical teams out there that specialize in doing what we do in the UK. Jen Unwin's group is fantastic. You know there's so many others I don't want to just stick to them. You know there's so many others, I don't want to just stick to them. But you know, in Canada, I know Vera Tarman is, you know, very focused on this, supporting the literature go support them. The organizations, go support them. We all need that support because Coca-Cola is the enemy for getting this recognized, and Nabisco and General Mills and you know we have fierce enemies and staunch dogma to fight against.
Dr. Tro:So if you're, if anything I said resonated with you, go visit the SMHP. You know the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners. Go, you know like, come to our. You know we have free meetings. We have free meetings on our app. You know we have a. It's the Torrid Health app. It's a free app. We have free meetings on getting started with carbohydrate reduction, free meetings on tips for fasting. We have a full curriculum on food addiction. I mean, you know I'm trying to make the healthcare system and the medical organizations that I wish I had and I'm honored to be a part of the SMHP. I'm honored to be the medical director now, with four health coaches, you know two doctors, a PA, an amazing team of you know 15 at our clinic, nationwide clinic. It's just an amazing honor to be a part of this community.
Florence:Going back. So you were in the office, this fellow that you were screening for alcoholism. You realized, hey, wait a minute, this fellow that you were screening for alcoholism. You realized, hey, wait a minute, I think I'm, I think I think I'm addicted to ultra processed foods. Then what happens? So I've never known anybody to just sort of have that revelation and have it go. Oh, I'll just abstain, like usually. There's then another part of the journey where there's where they're struggling, they're on again, off again. They're trying to decide, decide between do I just reduce or do I have to completely eliminate it, and they try both. And sometimes things get worse and messy because we, as we try and abstain, it can feel like dieting and restriction, and for me I wound up binging. So it was a disaster. But I was doing this without help, on my own and um. So I wondered what happened for you, like after that revelation.
Dr. Tro:A lot of self-experimentation. So you know, I'll give you a quick example. I was like, okay, where is this drive coming from? Is it carbs, sweet, both? I took a tub of plain Greek yogurt, fasted all day, ate it, was satiated. I added fruit, just a little bit of strawberries, and I was like all right, let's see what happens. I ate two tubs of Greek yogurt and was still hungry the next day. I said, okay, let's try Splenda. Same thing ate two tubs of yogurt, still hungry. So I knew carbohydrates have some impact on me and sweetness has another impact on me.
Dr. Tro:When you're looking at an addiction, there's two major routes you can take. One is abstinence and harm reduction. I think the goal is always abstinence. Living in, you know, a substance, a harmful, substance-free life, and I think the reality for us mere mortals is harm reduction is just a lot easier to implement. So if you're coming off of, you know, soda and chocolate that you know, the reality is there's so much chocolate in our life it's very hard not to get rid of all those triggers. And so there's so much soda everywhere in our lives, or whatever Frappuccinos now, that it's hard to get rid of these triggers. So having safe alternatives, much like a spare tire in a car, something you don't always use but something that you turn to in case of emergency. I think is a really good approach, especially since attacks on your appetite are universal and should be expected. So I think abstinence is the goal.
Dr. Tro:Harm reduction is a tool, is the proper way to sort of think about it, and then the degree with whose harm reducers is entirely up to you. Like, if I, early in my career, you know, with this diet I would eat several Quest bars and dark chocolate, you know, I mean, I would go through a box a week and that was a success for me. Now I don't remember the last bar I've eaten, maybe eight years. Right, there was times where it's more, there's times where it's less. You know, I remember I was in a vacation and everybody was eating ice cream and you know we're in this uh sort of convenience store and there's people with me eating ice cream and I was like, screw it, I'm gonna eat a protein bar. You know, and and.
Dr. Tro:Is that an ideal for me? Certainly not. But I have zero whim harm reducing, zero questions with it. It was the best I could do in that moment and that was my decision. But when it comes to harm reduction, I think the key is making sure that doesn't keep you in the addiction loop. Keep you in the addiction loop and as long as you're using a harm reducer in the way that it's intended, which is, on the path to abstinence, you know that you're good and the problem with that is there's nobody but you that can answer that question Is this on the path to abstinence?
Dr. Tro:So if you really have to have a very clear internal vision or a good, trustworthy mentor or coach or team that can help you sort of weed out, you know, if you truly got three flat tires in a week, right Like. The only person that would know is you. I mean, if you're you know driving over glass, knowingly right and using those flat tires. Well, now it's time to reevaluate. If you're on that fourth or fifth flat tire, you know even a mechanic's going to say listen, florence, what's going on here? I know we got the spare on, you did good, but what's up that you're using so many. Maybe you need a vision check, maybe something's wrong.
Dr. Tro:I think part of the privilege of using harm reduction as a tool is having the insight to actually check in, make sure that the use is appropriate and make sure your overall progress is in line with your health goals. Because you know that harm reduction, I think it's a, you know it's part of the healing cycle and in my own career the use of these things has gone up and down. Mainly now it's down, but I could not be here today without them, you know. So I I'm a you know. I don't know if that answers your question.
Florence:It's brilliant, it really does. And I think it helps validate everyone's journey because we are, we have stretches where we're doing great and then we sort of dabble, we slip, we, and then we feel really, really, we can feel really bad about it, but it's such a helpful message to say, okay, just notice, just be present, no judgment, no shame, no guilt, just notice. And as it does, it feel out of alignment. Okay, how do you want to shift it, to sort of get back more where you feel at peace and aligned with your food? But we all do this. There's ups and downs and ebbs and flows and slips, and we just do.
Florence:And for some people it's not necessarily with refined foods, it might be. Oh, my nuts are. I'm going off the deep end with almonds these days. What is going on here? Or I just ate a half a jar of peanut butter, what's up? But the what's up part can lead to some really beautiful next steps, like what's going on for me? It's not, this isn't about the food. This is the food telling me that I'm needing food for a reason. What's that reason? And we can go and do a little deep exploration there.
Dr. Tro:Yeah, usually stress, anxiety, emotions, sleeplessness, chronic pain. Those are like the major ones, those are the ones, those are mainly it. But I'm happy you brought up nuts because those are like a huge trigger food for me. When do I turn to them when I want a snack? Why do I want a snack? Because of all the things I just mentioned.
Florence:Right, Normally I'm not hungry.
Dr. Tro:I don't eat Right. So nuts are a problematic food. I'm not sure. I think also by nature they're a problematic food.
Dr. Tro:But not health-wise in general. It's just a very you know I've never seen a squirrel moderate its nut consumption. You know, I've never seen. You know that egg poor sloth in ice age is like killing itself over an acorn, right, I think. You know. You can tell I have young kids. But you know, the thing is is that I think there's something quite captivating about the nuts and so just being mindful of that in and of itself, I think, is helpful. But you're absolutely right, just pause and reevaluate. Pause and reevaluate and you'll uncover more and more about your relationship to hunger, I know sleeplessness the next day I'm going to be hungry.
Dr. Tro:I know that under stress, social stress particularly, I'm going to be hungry. And so you accommodate for those things and you adapt to try to mitigate the consequences you're not happy with.
Florence:Right, right, right, and it's okay to course correct Harm reduction's a thing. People are getting the kind of results in your program, not necessarily doing it absolutely perfect. Perfect is the enemy of progress, as they say, and it's just helpful to have support around trending trending where you're going and watching new things pop up and trending again towards the abstinence, the whole foods that work for you. I just have one last question. We got to wrap up here, I know. Do you have one more second?
Dr. Tro:Sure yeah, yeah okay.
Florence:It is so statistically nearly impossible. What you did, dr Tro. You come from a family where everybody's obese. You are already overweight at the age of four, like the fact that you reversed obesity in your own body is statistically almost. You know impossible by by by the research, but you did it. You know impossible by by by the research, but you did it and did the rest of your. What happened for the rest of your family? Did they watch like Whoa? This is possible.
Dr. Tro:Like, did they follow in your footsteps and what happened?
Dr. Tro:Yeah, uh, my older brother lost, uh, 250 pounds and um, but then there was a war in the country he was in and COVID, he went through some social situations that were very challenging and he regained it all back and now he's back to losing.
Dr. Tro:He's down about 100 pounds. So I think we're all know we're all struggling. You know we're all struggling, and our ability to win in terms of weight is largely predicated on our mindset and our mental health. So I think that those have become important and you know it's funny, you know, I think, family you know it's always a bit tricky, but, yes, I think I have had an impact on my family, you know, for the positive and I think, also, knowing that you know, as a human right, you're not looking for your family to be your healer right and really knowing that right, they're looking for a brother, a son, a you know a, and so, being mindful of your role, I think is important in situations like that, right, like, people choose me to be their healer, and so I take that choice sacredly, and not everybody chooses that.
Dr. Tro:So I think, um, as a, as a healer, you have to accept that. Uh, you know, but? But I know that they're listening and watching and seeing and they're asking, and it's only a matter of time with all of them, and when they choose to go down that road, all the resources are at their fingertips you're really beautiful answer right.
Florence:It's not like you have to choose it, it's just that you can. So if there's ever a voice in your head, if someone's obese listening to this and they've they've got the message that the doctor tried to give dr tro when he was 13, that you know, you kind of this is just your lot. It's okay, we can work with it. We'll work around this. We'll work with you. You know, don't don't always have hope. It can be reversed and even when there's a clear genetic predisposition and there's food addiction in play, it can be reversed. Is there any final words you'd like to say today, before we wrap up today, dr Tro?
Dr. Tro:No, I think I said them all. I'm on the board of directors. You know, volunteer position at the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners Go, support them. We need the support. If you know somebody who wants to see the medical and health organization change, make a donation and find people in the space, find the people who are publishing their results and the impact of their work, and support them. You know I've funded all of our research. We just submitted another paper of our two-year results and all of this is completely self-funded. You know I don't have any. I don't have anybody. You know there's nobody supporting this. So we need your support. I know the same with Dr Jen Unwin. We talk about this and she's publishing her new results and we need people to support us. Right, we can't.
Dr. Tro:You know, I'm a physician. I don't take sponsorship. I don't accept any money for speaking. I've never done that. I've spoken nationally and worldwide and I turn down every um, every you know stipend, and I ask for a donation, uh, to be made instead of that stipend. I think if I want to talk about something, I should be on my own accord, influence free, and so, um, find these people who are champions, because we need your support, I need your support. So if you're listening to this, you know the Society of Metabolic Health Practitioners needs your support. You know the Food Addiction Consortium that met. We need your support, so we need your support. So if you need help, we also need help. So let's scratch each other's backs.
Florence:I love that. We'll put a link to the society of metabolic health practitioners under your interview, so it'll be right there. It'll be super easy to just click on that. I'm a part of that organization and is there opportunities for people to volunteer? Like certainly, donations are fabulous. Is there operate boards or opportunities for people to volunteer? Like certainly, donations are fabulous. Is there boards or opportunities for people to participate at that level?
Dr. Tro:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Uh. There's all sorts of committees we have, you know, advocacy, research, outreach conferences, Um so volunteer doesn't just have to be you know, uh, even volunteers uh are always welcome. Be you know, even volunteers are always welcome. So wonderful. Yeah, absolutely.
Florence:Okay, thank you so much for that. That's a really great thing to really highlight, cause, yeah, together we'll, we'll get this turned around. We'll, as best we can, thanks everybody for tuning in today. Thank you again, dr Tro, for your time today. It was brilliant and amazing, thank you.
