The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
The Kick Sugar Coach Podcast
Bitten Jonsson: The Reality of Sugar Addiction Recovery
Bitten Johnson has been sober from alcohol for 39 years, but quitting sugar? That was the real battle.
As Sweden's leading sugar addiction expert and registered nurse, Bitten discovered her food addiction while already in recovery from alcoholism. What started as a personal struggle became her life's work—training coaches and medical professionals to treat what she calls "the strongest psychoactive substance on earth."
In this candid conversation, Bitten shares her own relapse story during menopause, reveals why traditional recovery methods often fail, and explains why she believes ketogenic eating is crucial for lasting freedom. She doesn't sugarcoat the reality: recovery rates are low, relapse is common, and our toxic food environment makes healing harder than ever.
But there's hope. After decades of working with thousands of clients, Bitten has developed methods that work. She explains why treating addiction must come first, before trauma work or therapy, and shares the daily practices that have kept her free for decades.
Whether you're struggling with food cravings yourself or trying to understand why willpower isn't enough, this interview offers rare insights from someone who's walked the path and dedicated her life to lighting the way for others.
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Florence's courses & coaching programs can be found at:
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Hello and welcome to an interview today with Bitton Johnson, and she has quite a lengthy bio and just so that I don't mess it up, I'm going to read it. Has quite a lengthy bio and just so that I don't mess it up, I'm going to read it. So Bitten is a registered nurse since 1973. She's an addiction specialist. She's a sugar addict certified. She's a forerunner in the field of sugar addiction in Sweden, but she's also internationally renowned as a forerunner. Like she was an early, early adopter in this space. And what was interesting, when she first started practicing sugar, you know, diagnosing and treating sugar and sugar addiction she was actually part of the medical establishment, like they, they appreciated her and they made space for her and the work that she did. Obviously, that is not happening here today.
FLORENCE:She has been internationally featured in all kinds of podcasts and summit. She's been on TV and radio in Sweden, norway and Finland many times. She's trained in the US and she's developed her own very special model of working with sugar. Forward slash food addiction. Forward slash ultra processed food addiction. Um, she's trained in functional medicine and orthomolecular medicine, together with american addiction medicine, on and on and on.
FLORENCE:She's extremely highly educated and doesn't stop. It just doesn't stop learning and figuring out all the different pieces of the addiction puzzle. She's written three books, including Sugar Bomb in your Brain, which was published in 2014 and revised in 2010 and 2016. And it's being translated into many different languages as we speak.
FLORENCE:She is also renowned for her training, so she no longer works one-on-one with individuals. They used to call her and say, please help me, and she'd be like okay, here we go, here's your protocol. And now what she does is she actually trains other coaches. She certifies them to do what she used to do with with our clients. She has a diagnostic tool called SUGAR S-U-G-A-R, which is an acronym, and she's also a member of the NAATP National Association of Addiction Treatment Professionals or providers in the US. And, yeah, she's now focused on training the next generation of sugar specialists. But she's also really working with doctors and nurses who, as she say, are completely baffled completely baffled about this condition, how to diagnose it and how to treat it, so she's very excited to be working within her own medical profession as well. Welcome, bitten.
BITTEN:Thank you, florence. Wow, oh, my goodness, that was a lot. You guys want to hear that, I think Me. Have I done all that You've?
FLORENCE:done all that and on top of it all, you've also walked the path of addiction recovery from both alcohol and sugar, and you really personally deeply understand what a complex, complex illness this is. So I don't know that you're going to be new to too many people, but why don't you tell us a little bit, I guess, about your own journey? We'll start there.
BITTEN:Oh, wow. Well, I grew up in a very normal family and when it comes to food, you know, I loved if I could get chocolate, but that was extremely rare in my childhood. We could have some homemade buns, but that was about it. When it came to sweet, we ate food. At that time it was meat and potato, you know that's what people ate or fish and potato and stuff like that. So I grew up on that and I was the oldest of seven.
BITTEN:So it was very natural for me to care for people and help people and take care of people in all kinds of ways. You know, big sisters always become very bossy and very. You know, I'll fix you, I'll carry, carry you. So I trained as a nurse and that's when I started drinking and smoking. And what I didn't know was that I was sugar addict at that time. You know I developed that earlier. I loved sugar since I was four or five years old and chocolate and ice cream was my drugs. You know I've never been into flour, god, because I see that that is very damaging. Any floor product, you know, bread, pasta, are very damaging to both the brain and the body. So I'm grateful I didn't like that. But you know.
BITTEN:And then I came into treatment when I was 33 in an excellent treatment facility in California, capistrano by the Sea, and they were hot, hot, top notch at that time, which I didn't know. I was furious because I had to go to treatment. My husband forced me, my ex-husband, because I wasn't an alcoholic. It was all the others' problems. They had problems, not me, but you know the knowledge. They gave me deep knowledge about addiction and what it was all about. But it was a brain illness that baffled me because in Sweden it was, you know, low character, low moral. You were bad blah, blah, blah thing. It wasn't an illness in Sweden at all. So I felt a little bit miffed. Well, I was furious actually, but nobody told me that before. And that's where my training started. I went to the University of Irvine and got into training about the first researchers on the dopamine system 1985. Can you believe it? That's a long time ago.
BITTEN:And then I've studied addiction and all kinds of things. I quit smoking after seven years into sobriety, and that's when I realized sugar. Because I said to a woman I work with how come I could quit smoking and quit alcohol, but I can't quit chocolate and ice cream? And she looked at me and said maybe you're a food addict. And I said what, what's that? No, I said I'm not a food addict. I have no problem with food. You know meat and potato and fish and potato. Of course I didn't. I never lost control over that. I never binged on cod or cucumber. There has to be certain things that I've binged on. Uh, of course, the combination. You know sugar, fat, salt, flour, blah, blah. So anyway, um, that's why I call it sugar addiction today, because when I asked people in sweden, do you have problem with food? They said food. No. What about sugar? Oh, yeah, god, I can eat myself to death.
BITTEN:So it's because I work. I'm a clinician, you know. That's why I work with people and I I use the language they understand. So all my language is for the client that has foggy brain, shame, feel stigma, denial, fear, think they are worthless. So in order to cut through that fog into them understanding this because it's the only way to heal you know that I have to develop a language with metaphors and some jokes and the red dog, blue dog. That's what these people understand. Then they can start grasping. I'm not a bad person, so that's my way of talking to people. So, anyway, I wasn't planning to work with this. I was working with alcohol, pill and drug addicts at the treatment facility. I was the program director, so that's what I was working with alcohol, pill and drug addicts at the treatment facility. I was the program director, so that's what I was doing. And then, of course, I said to that person, where do I go for help? And they said you go to USA and you meet the people that started this kind of treatment for, you know, sugar food addicts. And that was in Chicago Lutheran General Hospital and I met those wonderful people. It was a big chain at that time called Parkside Medical Corporation. I think they had 100 treatment centers all over US. This was 92 and I was shocked. But you know, it was like starting all over.
BITTEN:And then I came back to Sweden and I started talking about this. You know I said I'm a recovering alcoholic. I have no shame. I have an addiction. That's an illness. So I talk about it and my recovery. And people were shocked that I mentioned these things. And then people started calling me and said you know what? I'm? A foodaholic. They use all kinds of names on this. You know, I'm going to eat myself to death. I can't stop eating. I weigh you know X amount kilos and I can't lose. And if I lose I gain it back and I have all kinds of diabetes.
BITTEN:You know, they kept talking about and thinking and all of them thought that they were eating due to a trauma or that they were eating due to feeling miserable, and they didn't know why they felt miserable. They didn't understand that addiction was a primary illness. So when I started teaching them that, you know you can go to talk therapy the rest of your life. Unless you deal with your sugar addiction, nothing's going to happen. So that's how it started. So people started coming and I started developing treatment. You know what should I do? They were. They were in my, on my doorstep. So that's what I did and my model is actually after Capistrano by the Sea, where they had a very, very highly advanced addiction treatment team treating alcoholics and drug addicts, because it's the same illness, it's just another type of drug. So that's what I'm been doing and you know people teach me a lot. My clients have taught me so much because I share and they share and they share and I listen and you know I've heard everything.
BITTEN:But in 2012 I felt that, okay, okay, I'm going to start a candle or grow roses I puke at this because I was alone and my caseload was horrendous, horrendous. People called me seven days a week and were desperate. There was no way I could keep up. So I thought, no, I'm not going to do this anymore. It's crazy, it's suicide to keep working like this alone. But then one day I thought well, wait a minute, why don't I teach colleagues? And then the next chapter came and that's history. So I started to teach colleagues in 2012.
BITTEN:The first training was in Swedish, and you know, I didn't. I think I had four students four, but that was a start. And then, in 2018, people contacted me and said, hey, we wanna, we want your training in English, so you better do it. So then I do training in English. And then Sweden is so, as Sweden is Stonehenge, I'm sick and tired of Swedes and it's so moderation and vegan, and you know, blah, blah, blah. They are so in the hands of the food industry and pill industry, so they're very square, square. I mean, I don't think we have one doctor treating illness with ketogenic diet. Can you believe that? No one. If so, he's hiding somewhere in a village up in Lapland. But anyway, that's why I said you know, and also my dear colleagues with my train, they bought the Swedish version of my training, which I gladly handed over to them, so I hope they're going to do better. I really want to support them, but anyway, I started working only in English. That's it, that's my story.
FLORENCE:That's amazing. That's amazing, that's amazing. So you just going back to your own sort of awakening oh my lord, I have yet another addiction. I'm addicted to sugar and processed foods. So you go over to the states, you do this treatment, you come back to sweden, you start working. Did you ever relapse? Or like did? Did it just click for you?
BITTEN:No, no, no, no, no, no. First of all, you have to well with alcohol. It is very easy Either you drink alcohol or you don't. Okay, I never relapsed in alcohol. So I've been sober in September 39 years. Okay, I don't have 32 years of sobriety, or I have when? How do you define it?
BITTEN:There are 10 food plans, you know, and in the beginning we had fruit in our food plan, we had low fat, we had grain, but they were brown. They were healthier brown grains, but they were brown. They were healthier brown grains. And you know, we had all kinds of things but we took away, like the cake and the sweets. But of course we ate a lot of carbs and that's sick when you have a sugar-sensitive brain. So we didn't know that. We didn't know anything about nutrition, about, you know, insulin resistance syndrome. We knew nothing about the microbiome. I mean, we didn't even know the nourishment requirements for a healthy brain. We just have a food plan that somebody did early on and we stuck to it and you had to do all kinds of things like calling a food sponsor before meal, after meal, weigh and measure. It was like your whole life had to resolve around your food, which is another obsession. It's very sick, I think, you know, to stay in recovery because we weren't satisfied, our bodies didn't get the right fuel and satisfaction. Our bodies didn't get the right fuel and satisfaction. So, of course, if you see that eating three sour rye bread instead of one, it's not a relapse. I mean, I haven't written all that down. Those first years Eating potato, once I quit that, I don't know when do you put the. Do you see what I mean? I do. I have a food plan so many times and, uh, you know, in 2005, I went into the liberal low carb and we had whipped cream and we had cheese and we had yogurt and we had nuts, ooh, uh, and you know it's that a relapse and you know, is that a relapse? So you know, I have had one thing that I call a relapse.
BITTEN:When I was 48, I went into menopause and that was a beautiful awakening. It was the best lecture I've ever had with the food, because I didn't think that I would go back to eating chocolate and ice cream Of course, never so and I thought I was pretty stable, but I started to feel at unease and I did not connect. I was in menopause. I thought that happened to older women. I didn't feel old at 48, right, so anyway, that was funny. I went to my GP and I told him all the strange symptoms I had and he looked at me and I thought I had a very strange illness that nobody had discovered yet. That's how weird it was. And he's a very patient man. I don't have him.
FLORENCE:Yes retired.
BITTEN:I have another one now. He's the same guy but same type, but anyway, he looked at me and he said he listened and listened, and he said you're in menopause. And I said, excuse me, you're in menopause. I said what? That was funny. I mean I shouldn't know that. But no, I didn't. I was shocked and it snuck up on me.
BITTEN:So anyway, that's when I had a most beautiful relapse, mainly in chocolate, but also in ice cream, and I couldn't quit. I tried every day to quit. And then I got in touch with, through a 12-step program, a woman, and I asked for a sponsor that also was an alcoholic, because I feel that people that are food addicts and have no idea about any alcoholism or drug addiction, they don't really understand addiction in the deep end. They don't really understand the power of the addiction. So I wanted to have one that conquered that too, and I did, and I finally got out of it. And I don't remember now I mean that's many years ago, so I can't say for sure how long it lasted. Then I'm going to have to dig out my journals from that time. But you know, it lasted for a while anyway and I became very sick, very, very sick.
FLORENCE:So would you say weeks or months? Oh, months, months, okay, oh yeah, weeks, okay.
BITTEN:Oh yeah, weeks, no, no, okay. You know I love chocolate and ice cream so much so once I stepped back, I thought, well, I will quit, but tomorrow, yeah, to keep the drug.
BITTEN:So you really only had one major sugar sugar, yeah, but I went around with my food plan many times until I found low carb and then 2016 keto. That is the most satisfying and, I think, correct way for us addicts which is a brain illness to eat. I'm absolutely convinced of that because and I used to say in the old days, we are sugar sensitive, so we cannot have anything that becomes sugar. But I wasn't really, you know, understood what I said actually. But when keto came along and I learned a lot about that, then that click thing came back to me oh yeah, we're sugar sensitive, so of course, we can't have anything that becomes sugar. You know, we have to stay away from that. Yeah.
FLORENCE:I wonder if there's people along a continuum in terms of addiction, because I certainly have clients that consume. They're more on the whole food, plant based doing well, doing well, um, but not everyone for sure. Like lots of other people say try pulling those out, see what happens. They're like oh my gosh, I have no cravings. I had no idea. Now I have peace with food, but there's others that seem to be able to do it well, you know, when it comes to, uh, vegan, um, you know I don't treat vegans right.
BITTEN:I said no to that many, many years ago because I can't get them sober and into recovery. They are like gastric bypass people surgery. They do well for two years, then the nutritional deficiencies start creeping up on them, so I stay away from that whole topic. I don't even discuss vegan food, no way. Vegetarian fine, fine, but I believe in red meat, but vegan food nope, not my. I don't want to even touch it with a 10-foot pole. That's my take on that.
FLORENCE:So hi, um, oh. So I have a bit in envy now. I'm like I did not have that journey. I was on again, off again, on again, off again. I relapse rampant, and one of the areas that you've now got this huge focus is around relapse, because it's I think you're more the exception than the rule bit, and would you say that that's true in terms of the amount of relapse that most people struggle with Unless you?
BITTEN:unless you count. You know my couple of potatoes with the sour fish. But see, I don't have a way and measure food plan. Potatoes are okay for me because I'm a Swede and I can eat that in the summer. It's okay in my food plan. I know where my boundaries are, but I would never eat anything with flour. I don't even eat spices that have, you know, chemicals in them.
BITTEN:I'm basically eating a very strict ketogenic diet. I eat a lot of animal protein. Well, actually, the only protein I eat is animal protein fish, egg meat, you know that type of thing fowl and then I eat. So some people would think I have a very boring food plan, but I think it is lovely because I never have to think about food. It's fuel and medicine and it's so. I do it so much with my left hand behind my back. You know what I mean then. Yeah, when I cook my meals and I eat my meals, it's not negotiable. I don't think should I have a little piece of fruit? No, I'm never thinking that way. Why would I do that? You have no fruit, no blueberries, no, nothing. Well, you know, if I ever have a few tablespoons of, the only berries I eat is wild raspberries and blueberries that I pick myself outside the door.
BITTEN:But you know I'm never I never excited about it. I can have it as a dessert after dinner if I eat with people, but it's not something I think about or long for or even think is very important so you've just so much peace and freedom around your food now that you.
FLORENCE:you have figured out the meal plan for you and now that you've got it, you're like, just yeah, normal eater, almost like there's no thoughts of food before you're hungry. You stop when you're full, it's all.
BITTEN:Yep, I'm satisfied all the time. My energy level is like this between the meals all day long. You know well, if I would have real hunger in the afternoon and I can't have dinner as early as I want because of guests or whatever, I can take a tablespoon with ghee and that's it Just have some fat.
FLORENCE:Have you ever seen people not thrive on the keto diet? It sounds like you've been putting people on, yeah, yeah of course People are.
BITTEN:First of all, you have to remember that people are biochemically very unique and you know, as I said to people, my fuel mix might not work on you, but I do believe in animal protein and the right fats and veggies. But you know, then you have to find out why they don't thrive. What are they lying to me about what they eat? That's one thing with addicts we have to ask ourselves. Because addicts lie and they, you know that's the nature of addiction. Or they deny because it is so shamey, or they eat something that they actually have a severe food intolerance for. It could be oxalate, it could be anti-nutrients, it could be. You know, the stomach doesn't break down eggs. They have a lack of hydrochloric acid. They have a broken microbiome. They might have been on a tremendous amount of antibiotics earlier. They have nutritional deficiencies in many other ways. They have a thyroid that's totally out of whack there are gallbladders that aren't working right.
BITTEN:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could go on and on and on. So severe insulin resistance, hyperactive pancreas. You know it's complicated, that's what I mean. It's a very complex illness to deal with and it's not. You know, there's not one exactly food plan with the same exactly fuel mix between these micronutrients and all that would function on everybody. I tell people I can't. You know, if I exactly write down what I eat for a week and I said you eat that, you might feel lousy, I feel fine. So I mean we don't know, it could be spices they use. I mean we can spend two hours on only that topic.
FLORENCE:And I think it's so important for people to understand that there is no one size fits all. I have had I recently had an interview two days ago with one of my experts major, major, major world expert and he's like I really believe that there's a one. You know there's a one size fits all. There's a reason my meal plan doesn't work for you. We can figure that out All the same reasons you've listed, but he goes. I think everyone could thrive on the meal plan that you know I recommend and I'm like I just the more I work with people, the less I believe that does he really understand addiction or does he understand nutrition?
FLORENCE:good, good question. Yeah, he's right, he under, he understands that addiction is a real thing, but it's not his field.
BITTEN:Yeah, he's more, and you know and then I have to add that addiction is the big thing to understand. If you're going to work with addicts and food because we are special sensitive, we have you know you have to understand addiction first and then the food. You can't go the other way around. So you have to always. One thing I've said for all the years, you know, since I started working, addiction has vetoed over all other knowledge when it comes to an addict and that is one of the big problems.
BITTEN:I see, florence, working with people. That's why so many of my colleagues get so frustrated and burn out and because you know they argue with all the things around. Not, they don't aim for the addiction piece. Because if you, if you really really diagnose an addict and show them you know the every part of their addiction and say here is what we're going to aim them, you know every part of their addiction and say here is where we're going to aim. And you know I have a picture with addiction in the middle and then I have all other consequences depression, you know, misery, stomach, blah, blah, blah, money, isolation, friends, relationship, all around.
BITTEN:You know most professionals that don't understand addiction or are afraid, very afraid of addiction. They mess around in the outer circle all the time trying to fix that, because they think it's unpleasant to shoot in the middle. I only shoot in the middle. They think it's unpleasant to shoot in the middle, I only shoot in the middle. People say to me oh, can I tell you my life story? And I said, no, I don't need to know your life story to help you. I only want to know how your addiction is, because your addiction is your primary problem. The rest is consequences. And if I help you fix the addiction, you fix the consequences all by yourself, because then I restore your energy and you know your stamina. You go out and fix it interesting.
FLORENCE:Yes, I think I have a similar sort of concept. I have the addiction in the middle, though, and I have all the negative unwanted consequences downstream. So metabolic syndrome, weight, weight issues, mental health issues, all the things that are causing us pain, that get us to consider looking at our food, and then, as we play with our food, we realize, hey, wait a minute, this should be easier. And then they discover there's an addiction. But I think there's issues upstream of our addiction before. Yeah, like the, the nervous system dysregulation, like I think that sort of is upstream of our addiction.
BITTEN:But you're talking about the biochemical differences, uniqueness that we're born with. That affects how the addiction expresses in us. Like you know, it's like pregnancy. Some women get pregnant and have a totally flawless pregnancy and then they have the delivery and it was hunky-dory because their body handled it and it was nothing. Some have, you know, a horrible pregnancy. They feel miserable, the hormones, all kinds of consequences. But it's the same with addiction.
BITTEN:So of course, you have to know where you come from. You know if you're hypersensitive, if you're a dopamine dominant or a GABA dominant I mean, I work a lot with all those. If you are stress sensitive, you need to understand your environment, where you come from, the relationship, the family. But it didn't cause the addiction. That's the important thing to remember. And you might have severe traumas that need to be addressed.
BITTEN:But if I don't help you, you know, with addiction you'll never be able to deal with other things. You're never going to be thinking that, oh, I'm a sensitive person, I better take care of myself this way. Or, yeah, this is my personality. You never get to that point, so you always think you're crazy. Why am I not like florence? I'm bitten so, of course, but the problem with putting it if, if one were to do a line, putting that in front, is that I'm afraid that a lot of people could think that it's because of my childhood or because of this. That's why I became an addict. And then they think, if they fix the before, they will be normal Right. So that's why I put it in the middle. Totally, that's all. That's my thinking. But you know, that doesn't your. Your method is beautiful too. It's just another way of viewing it.
FLORENCE:But so it's, it's. I think it's very similar because you're right, do whatever sort of recovery work I'm wanting to do and hope that my food will just sort itself out, but the minute I pick up some sugar, some chocolate and ice cream, my addiction is going to kick into gear and I will have cravings and they will be annoying and I will be pulled in these directions, towards more, and that isn't anything that's ever going to go away, no matter how much therapy and meditation I do. Yeah, that is true.
BITTEN:That's the way I see it. And also there are some other things to be aware of is that we are with age I guess I'm older than you, but you know, with age, what I noticed, since I've been working with clients for 32 years and so many of my clients keep in touch with me and they contact me if they relapse or if they feel miserable, if they're on their way to relapse. They feel miserable if they're on their way to relapse. So I have, you know it's too bad I didn't have, you know, staff to do the research, because I hate details. I would never have been in a lab doing research, I would have died. I'm a clinician.
BITTEN:But anyway, I know from my experience that you become more and more carb sensitive the older you get, and that is very natural, because Org did you know that we had wrinkles on our intestines too. It doesn't look like you have one wrinkle so, but you know, with age we get wrinkles in our bodies. We age, our organs, our inner organs are not functioning like they did 10, 20, 30 years ago, no way. So you become more sensitive or more you need to be. It's easier to relapse if you're not watching yourself when you get older because it can hit you much faster because of these things. So you tolerate carbs less and less the older you get.
BITTEN:That's why I see people relapsing after years in the program because somebody told them they should be able to eat fruit. And they eat the fruit and boom, there you go. But 10 years ago they could eat fruit. So that's why I go for keto clear cut right away. Why wait 10 years and relapse? You know one more shooting straight. Let's get in, get her done. We might as well rip the bandaid off now.
FLORENCE:So some of the things that I hear from people working in this space and my own sort of coaching practice is that people will say, oh, it's just too hard. It's just too hard to do this perfectly every day in perpetuity. Does Florence, does anyone truly ever recover long term? And what is the percentage? Is it decimal? Zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero. One like, really like, what is the percentage?
BITTEN:to which I'll say let me ask Vitt in that question okay, uh, you know, uh, I think that I, if, if that was my client, I would say oh, I hear the red dog whispering in your ear to open the back door, which you haven't really closed yet, so you can get back to the drug. And then I would say it is incredibly hard and it's like you know. Did you know? I say that only 4% of every alcoholic get help and recover. It's less with food, because we don't have the knowledge, we don't have the trained people, we don't have the economy, we don't have the treatment centers. So long-term recovery, I've never measured, but I don't think it is a very long, very high number of recovery.
BITTEN:But I tell you this there is no perfect life. So if people think that it's perfect is because then they're still obsessing with the food plan. As I told you, I don't. To me it's like I have this car, I go to the gas station, I fill it up when it's empty and then I live again. So food, I don't talk food. I tell groups that I eat, but I have no recipe, no cookbooks. I learn to cook. To me it's like you know, cooking is like brushing my teeth. It's totally uncharged and I worked hard to come there and I tried to teach my clients to go there too. It shouldn't be a battle to eat. Then you're still obsessing about something or longing back for the drug or not satisfied Something is lacking. I try to view it as when, if you're an alcoholic, you put the cork on the bottle and then you never think about alcohol again and you start living.
BITTEN:I'm not saying that food is that simple because we live in a very sick food environment. We have all these people. You know how long are you going to eat this craziness? You're going to die from the batter. And I said well, at least you know I'll be fat and nice on the inside. Maybe you know I answer all kinds of things, but I mean there's still people that are fat scared. I mean, you know I answer all kinds of things, but I mean there's still people that are fat scared. And I mean you know all these things.
BITTEN:So sometimes in the old days I got very upset when people said things like that to me and I think it's funny. And one thing I say a lot to people is well, do you have a problem with me? I want you to look for therapy for yourself. It's you having the problem? I don't. So I learned to answer. But there is no such perfection, and that's what I meant by sharing my food plan from the beginning, how it was a process, how it was a process. You know it was step by step. I took away this, I took away that, I took away that, I adjusted that Until today, when being on a keto food plan is the most satisfaction I've ever felt with food, because it's so plain and so simple, so I don't have to mess around with it. I can't mess around with it. There's nothing to mess around with. Does it make?
FLORENCE:sense it does. And my journey was similar because I started for the first 14 years yeah, about 14, 15 years on my own there were very few books. I mean for the first 10 years is that? Yeah, about 14, 15 years on my own there were very few books. I mean, for the first 10 years there were no books.
FLORENCE:I knew nobody who was trying the same, the same yeah, like I read the sugar blues, I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. This resonates with me. That might explain my migraines, my depression, my acne, my, my weight, my, my weight gain, my, all my issues, like it's, but the food I'm eating. And then I started to unhook. It was. I was so motivated, bitten, like you could, I could have climbed and bound Everest with the amount of motivation I had. I was so when something rings so true, I was so like, yes, oh my gosh, I've been praying for this. I was so like, yes, oh my gosh, I've been praying for this. Because in the dark, I had terrible migraines.
FLORENCE:But yeah terrible, truly, and I'd be in the dark and I would be vomiting. I'd be sick for three, four days. I would want to die.
FLORENCE:I was suicidal. I wanted to die because I did the migraine. The migraine medications weren't working anymore. I was in and out of the emergency center. I have so many scars on my bum from them jabbing me with morphine or whatever they gave me and it just wasn't working. It would last for a few hours, or maybe a little bit longer, and then it would start coming back and it was like it was torture. It was torture and I would sit there in the dark going no-transcript it, but I couldn't do it. I would go three, four days and then I would eat something you know, nobody taught you about the power of the drug.
BITTEN:It is the stronger psychoactive substance on earth because it doesn't only affect our reward system and it's not only dopamine, it's many neurotransmitter that's affected. Dopamine is only the conductors. It's a big hype about dopamine, but that's what? Very one-eyed, I think, very narrow-minded to not understand the havoc, the ripples it does. Uh, it's about the fatty acids in the neurons, it's about the reptilian brain being over activated. It is about the pancreas being over activated and the ripple in the hormone chain. So it's like an evil triad. So it's so strong, it's much stronger than alcohol and cocaine and it's everywhere. It's legal the smell and cocaine, and it's everywhere. It's legal the smell, the sound, the cue-induced craving it's everywhere, everywhere. So I mean that's why it is so difficult and we have to be aware of that.
BITTEN:That's why I say you know, I quote Kennedy when he said you know, we aren't going to the moon because it's easy. We're doing it because it's hard and getting on this journey is hard and I think that's one of the hardest things as a professional worker in this All these people asking me, mailing me, texting me, calling me, help me, help me, help me. But they don't go on the wagon. So why don't they go on the wagon? Well, because you know, they're even more drained of nutrition today with the food we have today and the power of the drug luring them back all the time. So it's much tougher to work with people today when it was, when I started, because people had more nourishment in their body at that time. Now they're depleted and they have, you know, their mitochondria shut. So there is no energy in the mitochondria and that makes them think that they are depressed, suicidal, that you know they have no energy. So if I tell them you know you should, well, tomorrow we're going to start and you're going to take a walk in the morning, 10 minutes in the sun, and you're going to, they go, I can't do that, they have no energy. And then we talk feelings with them energy. And then we talk feelings with them and I said I don't talk feelings and thought later on, later on, because that's going to strengthen that, reinforce it, the misery. So all I want to know eat this and tell me what energy level you have. All I do is restore energy. And I said, when I help you restore energy, you can deal with all the other problems and you're going to start doing it on your own. But let me tell you how to restore your energy. That's number one Heal your brain, restore the energy. Otherwise they have nothing to work with and they're more depleted than ever.
BITTEN:And there are many more of them than ever. And there are many more people that close their eyes to it because they feel it's too hard to help them, it's too complicated, too difficult to help them. So the need is huge out there. There are very few helpers. Very few people can afford to ask for help. I mean, you know, I talked to a person that runs 12-step groups. Now they have grown like crazy and I'm so happy for that because that's what we have. You know, without that we would be really lost. And then comes Osempic. Well, it's not new, it's been around for a while and we know now that it's going to help for a while and then it's going to quit working. Then what do you do Like?
FLORENCE:every other, it's going to quit working.
BITTEN:Really, what evidence is there for that? No, but we have seen that people are using it. Oh really, it starts going away after about three to four months.
FLORENCE:Oh no, I've known people on there for years, yeah.
BITTEN:Good, but those are few and far between Really, and if they quit, you know what's happening.
FLORENCE:If they quit, it comes back. Yeah, yeah.
BITTEN:So you know that is not the solution to everybody, right? Of course not, and uh, many people. There was a study made now in sweden. Uh, shows that the craving comes back, but now they have craving for sweets, not for fat did they have cravings for fat before? Yeah, but cravings. But I mean they liked fat because they were on a low carb diet. They have they get more sugar cravings oh, I see yeah, yeah.
BITTEN:so also my thinking is if you take it, you know it makes. It makes you eat less, lose weight, but if you still eat junk food, what's going to happen to your body? Yeah, your brain.
FLORENCE:Yeah, if you're on it, see, and I do wonder if in the future people might be on a low dose to help them take the edge off the cravings. For those of us that are working with people who are like I just can't.
BITTEN:Yeah, for the volume eaters it could be a solution.
FLORENCE:yeah, it might be just short term, low dose maybe, and until we can work with their diet and then they're on the right diet and then yeah, you said the key.
BITTEN:We help them with diet and lifestyle changes.
FLORENCE:Yes, yes, and I'm not proposing that, I just, I imagine.
BITTEN:I thought that to even that, or something new, better, no side effects, that would be fine, because you know, I know that people they need. You know I work with Shashtin, my friend, the professor in oxytocin research. You know her. No, no, okay, she teaches in my training and we know that. You know overeaters, volumeters, probably have a lack of oxytocin. So we have played with the idea for a long time. What if we could give them oxytocin, which is the normal neurotransmitter to increase satiety, for maybe three, four or five months until they are stable on a food plan? So I'm totally open, but open for that is there any research on that?
FLORENCE:is that no?
BITTEN:no, no, nobody dare do it yet. No, there is no try. But we are sure it should work if there was ever any interest in the industry to do that. But you know, oxytocin is not a prescription drug. It would be a normal. It's a neurotransmitter and a hormone.
FLORENCE:How would you introduce oxytocin into the system?
BITTEN:You know the problem is that you would be able. You have to do it eating it. It has to go down in your stomach, but what is?
FLORENCE:it like how would you get that chemical?
BITTEN:well, you know, you could take it in a liquid, in a little bottle, and then it's a liquid, but the problem is that it breaks down immediately when it comes down in your stomach, unless it is what your body makes yourself. So that's why I have a program where I teach people to increase oxytocin, you know, without drinking oxytocin.
FLORENCE:I didn't know oxytocin was something you could even drink. I didn't realize it was a chemical that they had isolated.
BITTEN:Yeah, you could make it in the lab and drink it today. You can get it in the spray for you know, uh, in in the birth um, to give to women that gives birth for contraction, and yeah, it's a spray. Yeah, but that's the only thing I think. That's all it's a spray. Yeah, but that's the only thing I think. That's all it's approved of for now. The spray.
FLORENCE:If I was 20-something I would think, oh my gosh, there's so many different research directions to go. I'd be like I'd work with Bitten on that, that idea of using oxytocin, and just like, how can we support people it's just the beginning to get over the hump? Well, it's not really true. To get over the hump Well, it's not really true. But yet mostly just to get them where there's no cravings, they feel peaceful, they're feeling better, their body's like I'm with you, I'm your ally. Now I'm not going to fight you, this is better, but to get them over that hum, and then once they're cruising for a while and let's get back to the topic of relapse, because this is totally an area of expertise for you. So I guess you're basically saying it's a very small percentage of people who can do this long term. So people here in that will go. Well, why bother then? Why can I not just figure out how to minimize my consumption, to sort of like minimize? You can't?
BITTEN:minimize consumption. You can't eat moderation eating if you're an addict, because it's going to go into full blown relapse and you're going to be worse off than you are. Relapse is progressive. It's not going to work. I've seen that. Do you think an alcoholic could do that? Drink a little bit of alcohol on Saturdays.
FLORENCE:Benton, there is a whole harm reduction, moderation, alcoholic movement. I've met some people hard-on alcoholics 12 steps, years of sobriety who are now doing beers on the occasional weekend and they're fine, I'm not even interested.
BITTEN:That's what I would say too. What's the point? What's the point? What's the point to having a beer on Saturday? What is the longing? What is the power of the drug that you are uh letting yourself get into that? What is wrong with sobriety and abstinence? Why do you need a chemical? I mean, I could go on and on, but we're not going to go there. Um, I don't understand it they.
FLORENCE:They enjoy a cold beer from time to time and they're like I have figured out how to and there's a certain protocol and I know a little bit about it that seems to work. But you're right, like when you're free, why would you go back?
BITTEN:Okay.
FLORENCE:So what are the long-term factors that people need to put into play to get the kind of recovery that you have? You hold out for us, that you invite us to experience?
BITTEN:What are the factors? Well, a factor is to have a burning passion to understand addiction, because you know, no matter how long I live, it's the most complex illness on earth. So very few will really grasp how complex it is, how cunning, baffling, powerful and patient it really is. And you know, seeing that it will rear its little ugly head up in all kinds of new ways, shapes and form. And one of my trainees, melanie Martin, she had a beautiful saying about addiction it's a shape-shifting beast and that's really true. It's really true and I see that all the time. And I see that so few people understand the illness of addiction. So you might be abstinent in food and alcohol but then you develop another addiction, like screens or pornographic. I mean I see this all the time.
BITTEN:So as long as you have this addictive part alive in you, you can switch to other outlets and you know you deprive yourself of your full life, you deprive your children, your family. I mean you still have a pathological love relationship with the drug or a process. So you're still part of you is still occupied with that. I think all of us have stuff like that. I mean I could have 40 dogs or 300 roses or something. I can't afford that. So that's good. But you know we always have things that we are passionate about, about, or you know we want to overdo or whatever, but we can't call it an addiction unless it is severe negative consequences. Uh, you know so forth. But but you know that's in the makeup of us.
BITTEN:So one of the things is to is knowledge. That's what my point Knowledge, to always learn. And also I have some colleagues and some of my former clients that understand this, and I say that very few people understand addiction on the depth that they should. There's always a lot to learn. So I think it's a curiosity because it's not only an illness, it's also like an entity. So it's very interesting to see also how addiction plays out in our society, and very few people see the horrendous consequences it has on everything in our society on people, lives, humans, illness, economy, blah, blah, blah. I think it is amazing that people are so ignorant about it.
BITTEN:So it always challenged me to try to teach about that. So that's one of the things that keep me in my recovery, because you know, if I go back and die, uh, who's gonna teach? Not that I think too big on myself, I'm joking, but you know what I mean. I like to teach people so that more people wake up, because I think that that kind of community is, you know, what's going to save us, not the egomaniac society we have today with all kinds of I mean we have so much drugs in Sweden, you wouldn't believe it. We have weapons, I mean, every country is infected and that's addictive society.
BITTEN:So one of the things that challenged me sometimes I'm so sick and bored of it so I think I'm not going to teach one minute more and not talk about it one more minute. I puke at it, uh, but it does come back, you know, sooner or later somebody calls me or talks to me and it tickled me back into this again. So that's one of the things you know. And also, early on I learned that's only one day at a time. That is my savior, that you know, it's only for today. I'm very, very grateful that I really incorporate that into my life, you know, because I used to think, oh God, how's it going to be next year? Can we do this and should we do this? And what if I don't do this? What will happen? I can't say. I was worrying a lot, but I was always, you know, my mind was racing and today I said oh, today.
FLORENCE:Just for today.
BITTEN:Today. So what are you going to do? It's not that I don't think about my plans for tomorrow. I know them. I mean, oh good, that's tomorrow, I need to prepare, so I'm not oblivious to that. But you know, it's really living here now, there's no other way and also grow my interests.
BITTEN:I love space research. I love to read about space and dream that go out there one day. It's not going to happen to me, but I love it Because I really understand the astronauts that's been up there that say that once you're up there and you see this little blue sphere from there in that vastness of universe, when you learn how big your universe is, you feel like you want to care for it, like a baby. And that's how I feel. I feel because I study, I read a lot about astronauts and seeing pictures of the earth from there and I follow nasa and all that. So, and love listening to Brian Cox. You know the professor in astrophysics in England. I would love to meet him one day and have coffee with him. I would talk to him about this.
BITTEN:So I think it is a revere Reverence, reverence about life and earth. And nature is my church, I mean, there's no doubt about it. I love birds, I love grass, I love, you know, the love for life. I think that's what keeps me going to have developed that. And here comes what we talked about in the beginning my parents taught me love for nature. That is very special, I think you know. So I have it with me and of course, it wasn't very interesting when I was drinking and eating. Uh, you know, it's not that I was up in forest at that time, but you know I knew when I took away the drugs, what. What do I want to do? So you know, love the sun. I think the sun is the source of all life on earth, so that's very important to understand.
BITTEN:I love hanging with my friends. I love summer. I endure winter. I love my dog. I love dogs. Well, you know, it's the passion for those things they counteract, and that's what I mean when I say you have to grow the healthy part of you, the blue dog as I call it, instead of focusing on always fighting the red dog, because you don't have to fight the red dog, because it's always going to be there anyway. You can't kill it, you can't take it away, it's just going to be there, yeah, so don't be surprised when it rears its ugly face up. It will. And then also this dimension of addiction, that it's like an entity too. It's not only physical illness in the reward center and all that. I think that's what scares a lot of professionals. They don't know how to talk about this. They don't know how to address this. They think it's just fixing the food and everything is fine. It's not. It's not.
FLORENCE:I really would sum up what you just said. And exactly that, because I I was so obsessed because I didn't have a program, there were no books, I didn't even know 12 step programs existed. I didn't know if there was any other human being on the planet that was addicted to sugar. I knew I was and it wasn't until Kathleen Kathleen de Maison's book first came out and I I read it and I took it to bed and I remember hugging it and kissing it, thinking, oh my God, I'm not crazy, this is the thing, this is a thing and it's the food right, because I try, I was doing everything and I made huge progress, like year over year, month over month, year over year, my real I would relapse and then get longer stretches and then shorter relapses and longer stretches and more whole foods and refining what whole foods I felt good on and didn't seem to trigger me. But the sugar went down, the flour came up, I eventually got rid of the gluten completely and then the cheese came up.
FLORENCE:And I was like, oh my God, I was just playing whack-a-mole and then the cheese went down and the nuts came up and then the fruit and the nuts went down and the fruit came up and then it was volume and then I was like you couldn't overeat cod, I could. I got to the point where I could overeat chicken, I could yeah, yeah, yeah, of course we can, we can because I was in the mindset that if I just got the food right, I was recovered.
BITTEN:I had no freaking clue. We've all been there. We've all been there thinking that in the beginning. Yeah, that's why it's not about the food. Yeah, it's so much bigger. It's so much bigger with the. It's about the upstream issues.
FLORENCE:It's about my dysregulated nervous system. It's about the fact that I never needed to develop the tools to meet and greet my emotions. I never needed to. I would just eat over them.
BITTEN:And the food created the feelings that you ate on I'm so sorry, say that again and the food created worse feelings that you ate on the next day. So it was a vicious circle Vicious Right, veryicious Right, very vicious.
FLORENCE:Yes, so getting rid of the food, my moods and energy stabilized profoundly. My migraines were 80 to 90% better, all kinds of miraculous things happened, lost my weight, felt so much more joy. I could stabilize in relationships, everything good. But it did not touch the upstream, the trauma stuff. I needed to work with the dysregulated nervous system, the fact that I did not know how to drop into my body and experience everything there from a place of the calm curiosity that everyone's talking about. I didn't know how to do it and until I could do that, high risk, high, high risk of relapse.
FLORENCE:Um, but that's the beautiful work I like, thank, thank god. I had a food addiction because dropping in into the inner world, which is as real as the outer world, richer, more interesting, as vast as the universe, I say fuck the astronauts. I love the people who go in and are the, the explorers in there, because there's layers and layers and layers and people get into the deep spiritual experiences and transcendent states and connect with spirit guides and stuff. I haven't done, but I know it's possible in that whole inner world and we don't get to have anything happen in the inner world as long as we're stuck in the outer world with addictions.
BITTEN:Of course not. Then it is microcosmos or macrocosmos, and I mean you know either where you are. Yes, that you expand is the most important thing. If you prefer to go inwards into yourself and you might, you know, sit and pray for your mitochondria, I mean you could do that. Or I go out, you know, to one of those exoplanets, and I think you could do that. Or I go out to one of those exoplanets and I think how does it look there?
FLORENCE:Same. Thing.
BITTEN:Everything is the same. It's the same thing. It's very important that we understand that. It is the expanse, because you know the Sophronaki picture that I use in all my lectures to people in Iraq. That's in Pennsylvania. You know that one right? I don't think so. Oh my God, I can't share here now. No, I can't. It's an incredible picture. It's the sculpture of freedom. I'm going to mail it to you when we're done and you can get it.
BITTEN:You know, and addiction you are. It's a person in the big rock and then something you know makes that person try to start getting out of it. You know, and addiction is from the Adissere, means enslaved, in Latin right. I love this picture. And then the third person is moving out, coming out. How do you get people to start? Because you cannot pray people out of the rock. You can go in with chisels and machines and try, but you're going to kill them. That's not going to work. So how do you make that person to start leaning forward? So, get the energy. You have to give them energy. They can't do it if they don't have energy. First, right, and then you have to give them knowledge and hope so they know it's worth to step out of the jail. Yes, so that's what it's all about. So if you, step out.
FLORENCE:Oh, and, I know that image. I know exactly what you're talking about. I just got it in my mind's eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen it before.
BITTEN:I love. Gorski gave me that picture when I trained with him in the early 90s and I've loved it ever since. I use it in almost every lecture because people go, uh-oh, they get it right away, and the last, the fourth person is out of the rock doing this.
FLORENCE:Yes, yes, yes.
BITTEN:They're leaping with joy. That picture has been in my mind. Do I want to go back there? No, I don't Right, I want to be here. I want to go back there. No, I don't Right, I want to be here, I want to be free. Freedom meant everything to me. Yes, freedom to choose. You know what I eat, choose what I say, choose what I do, choose, of course, free choice is also a little bit of a myth, right, we are so affected by circumstances, but at least you know it's not a drug ruling me, or an alcohol, or you know it's not something ruling me hijacked our brains yeah, I don't want to hijack brain yeah
BITTEN:yeah, I want to fly our own plane. So those are some of the things that keep me sticking to my one day at a time. And then all my friends I have absolutely incredible friends that are in long-term recovery. Uh, you know, uh, we share a lot. We joke a lot, a lot of sense of good humor, a lot of laughter. We laugh at our red dog a lot. We can call and say, do you know what my red dog say? And then we share and it's just a rip-roaring laughter and yeah, uh. But you know, uh, I don't know more what the? It's not rocket science, even if I would love to go on a rocket not rocket science to do what I'm doing. I'm not any special. I don't do any special things. I don't have any hidden pills in my cupboard there's no hacks, it's just simple.
BITTEN:It's just simple, simple daily living yes, bitten, thank you very much.
FLORENCE:I want to apologize when I sort of f-bombed the, the astronauts, I wasn't trying to diminish your, your, your reverence and on excitement, no, I didn't I didn't even take it like that I didn't mean it in that sense.
BITTEN:No, no, no I can take it like that.
FLORENCE:I promise you did yeah feels infectious to me too to imagine that there's so much unknown and mystery and potential and exploration possible and as as vast as the sky is, that's as vast as the inner world is as well, brain.
BITTEN:I used to say that our brain is another universe. That's how magic our brain is and you have more germs in your intestines than you have cells in your body. So who is hosting who?
FLORENCE:Right, the bacteria are very kind to let us build around them, all right.
BITTEN:Anyway, we didn't address what we talked about. You know why medical professionals is afraid of this topic. We have to do that another time. I would like to, I would love to discuss with you and also why we touched a little bit why it is so difficult for people to step up on the recovery wagon today, because they are sicker than ever.
FLORENCE:That's why we really are. I've seen it even, even just in my life. I see, yeah, I see, and you know what people are dropping into the freeze response, the trauma response, so much more quickly and they're getting stuck there, which is at zero energy.
BITTEN:There's a total collapse of the system no mental horsepower, no mental horsepower none like.
FLORENCE:I had a client that was drinking three pops a day and she was doing really well and then she just like I, just it's like I just don't even have the. I can't do another minute, I'm just too exhausted and depleted.
BITTEN:They have adrenal fatigue, their thyroid is shut, their microbiome is shut. They're much sicker today than they were the clients I took on 10 years ago. Yes, yes, yes. And even 20, 20 years ago it was easier, and so forth 30 years ago, even easier.
FLORENCE:Yes, yes, so well, we did well we started this call before we turned the camera on, like, oh, what keeps you? I was like, what keeps you going then? Because there's days I hate to confess it, but there's days where I think, oh, I think I'm burnt out, like I just feel discouraged. I think a zempix coming in now people are just going to take a pill and not try and clean up their diet days too.
BITTEN:You know, we all do we? I think no, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm sick and tired of this Absolutely, because it's overwhelming, and you know. Then I talk about the starfish story, you know that one.
FLORENCE:I do Finish us off, end our interview on that, okay.
BITTEN:My version Little girl walking on the Pacific Ocean beach where I've been, which is a beautiful beach Santa Cruz is what I'm thinking in my mind Thousands of starfish is on the beach and she's throwing one by one back because it's been a storm. And then this older man, very desolation, comes walking by and he said what are you doing? Well, I'm trying to save this. Okay, you know there are thousands. You can't help all these, so it's not going to make a difference. She picks one more up, throws it in and she says it will make a difference for this one. So let's do that. That's what we're doing. Only this one, only this one. We're not going to save the world, only this one. That's great. I want to cry. Yeah, thank you Ben, thank you, thank you for holding space.
BITTEN:You are throwing many starfishes in the ocean all the time, and you're done for years, so just keep doing that.
FLORENCE:Thank, you so much spread the knowledge. Okay, thanks everybody for tuning in.
