Eric Edmeades: Your Sugar Cravings Aren’t Weakness—They’re Ancient Survival Programming

If you’ve ever asked yourself “Why can’t I stop craving sugar?” or “Why do I feel out of control around carbs?”—this interview will change how you see your body, your brain, and your sugar cravings.

In this powerful conversation, Eric Edmeades (founder of WildFit, author of Post Diabetic and The Evolution Gap) explains why sugar cravings are not a character flaw, a lack of discipline, or “just emotional eating.” They’re often ancient survival wiring—a deeply human instinct designed to keep us alive when sweet foods were rare and seasonal.

But today, sugar isn’t seasonal. It’s constant. And when your environment changes faster than your biology can adapt, the result is cravings, overeating, metabolic dysfunction, weight gain, and blood sugar instability.

In this interview, Eric breaks down the difference between natural sugar in whole foods (fruit, honey, root vegetables) versus refined sugar and ultra-processed foods—and why modern “food-like substances” keep your appetite switched on. You’ll also learn how ancestral food rhythms, metabolism, and food psychology can help you reduce cravings and rebuild trust with your hunger signals—without obsessing over meal plans, calorie counting, or extreme restriction.

You’ll Learn:

• Why sugar cravings feel irresistible (and why it’s not about willpower)
• The truth about sugar: it’s not evil—it’s too available
• Why refined sugar and corn syrup behave differently in the body than real food
• The seasonal way humans evolved to eat (and why it matters today)
• How “always-available” carbs impact insulin, appetite, and cravings
• Why meal plans often backfire (and what to do instead)
• The 3 metabolic states humans evolved to run:
  • Sugar burning
  • Fat burning
  • Autophagy (cellular cleanup through fasting)
• How to retrain your intuition around food when your appetite has been “hijacked”
• A food-first approach to improving blood sugar, energy, and long-term health

If you have ever felt powerless against sugar cravings, or wondered why you can’t maintain weight loss despite "trying everything," this conversation will change your biological perspective forever.

Chapters

• 0:00 Sugar Isn’t Evil, Just Ubiquitous
• 2:11 Show Intro And Eric’s Background
• 4:18 Why Preventable Suffering Drives The Mission
• 6:46 From Caffeine Dependence To Sugar Awareness
• 8:55 Do Doctors Believe Diabetes Is Reversible?
• 11:25 Food Psychology And The Eating Disorder Spectrum
• 14:00 Early Adopters, Proof, And Momentum
• 16:38 Three Pillars: Diet Truth, Rhythms, Psychology
• 19:05 What Humans Actually Ate Across History
• 21:20 Chimpanzees, Hunting, And Misconceptions
• 24:10 Sugar Revisited: Seasonality And Access
• 26:10 Principles Over Meal Plans
• 28:05 Ancestral Rhythms: Food, Daily, Seasonal
• 31:00 Three Metabolic States And Autophagy
• 34:05 Retraining Intuition And GLP‑1 Without Drugs
• 36:45 Seasons Aren’t Geography, They’re Metabolic
• 39:30 Health Debt And Choosing The Right Season
• 42:10 Spring Explained: Protein And Greens
• 44:10 Books, Resources, And Post‑Diabetic
• 54:10 Closing And Where To Learn More

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

It's not evil. Sugar in and of itself is not a bad thing. And that's the big problem these days is that we try to vilify it. Oh, sugar's bad and you should give up all sugar. And that's absolutely not true. There are evil sugars. I would argue that, you know, uh corn syrup and processed, refined sugar is a form of poison, frankly. But but the idea that sugar itself is evil is wrong. Um, our ancestors had a fabulous relationship with sugar, and it worked like this. For most of the year, carbohydrate foods were not readily available. But every now and again, carbohydrate foods would become plentiful in the form of root vegetables, fruits, you know, honey, that sort of thing. And when we ate those things, our pancreases were like very happy to start producing insulin to help us balance off that huge influx of sugar. But the challenge is that it tastes so good that if it's around too often, we seem to lose control. Now, in the old world, Mother Nature came along and said, No more sugar for you. It's out of season. It's done. And you might have some withdrawal symptoms for a little while and you might be a bit sad about it, but when it was done, it was done. But the challenge we have today is that we've mastered the environment, we've taken over agriculture, we we can grow what we want, we can fly it from wherever we want. I mean, even when I was a kid, I remember when I was a kid, you didn't get mangoes in the grocery store. Occasionally, occasionally, you know, and even bananas were seasonal and so on. And then and then all of a sudden now you can buy mangoes year-round in pretty much any grocery store around the world now, because they'll fly them in from Costa Rica when they're in season from there, then they'll come from Mexico, then they'll come from Africa, then, you know, it it it's we're now at a place where even the healthy sugars are so readily available that we can't be blamed for eating them all the time. And then equally, we now have a variety of, you know, food-like substances that are full of sugar and sweetness that trick us. And so, you know, it we're in a position where our instinct is if it's sweet and yummy, we should eat as much of it as we can because that was once a survival instinct. But now it's so readily available that we need to bring consciousness to that conversation and say, actually, no, I shouldn't be doing that all the time. So it's not that sugar's evil, it's that it's too available.

FLORENCE: 2:11

You're listening to the Kick Sugar Coach podcast, exploring sugar addiction, metabolic health, trauma, and paths to recovery. Glad you're here. I know Eric as a health and wellness expert. I know Eric because he's the founder of an amazingly uh successful and effective and popular program called Wild Fit. He's the author of Post Diabetic, which we'll get into today, the Wild Fit Way and the Evolution Gap. He's also got expertise around use of technology. He's worked in the film industry. And this is one of the cooler things in his bio, in my opinion, is that from he's over the past 15 years, he's been visiting, I think it's called the Haza, Hadza, Hadza, right? Hadza people in East Africa. And that after 15 years, they've made him an honorary member of their tribe, which is just phenomenal. And I just wonder what has brought you back there 15 years in a row. And how are you pulling this all together? I mean, anyways, there's more to say. Let me just think if there's anything more. He's helped tens of tens of thousands of people worldwide break free of sugar, sugar addiction, to get onto Whole Foods and totally transform their lives. What else do I want to do? He's done military RD. It goes on and on. Fascinating. Um welcome, Eric.

SPEAKER_00: 3:48

Thank you. Thank you. I I uh I'm glad to be here. I'm I'm always um I'm always like uh happy to share when people are are doing good work in bringing bringing awareness to you know our our food industry and and the state of health.

FLORENCE: 4:02

Yeah, absolutely. So for people who might not understand uh a bit about your story, how you what brought you know you've got all these many other different things that you could be doing with your life. What keeps you passionate about food and sugar and health and diabetes, etc.

SPEAKER_00: 4:19

I think what it for me it kind of comes down to is that um there there's a lot of unnecessary suffering going on. And um, and whenever I see that, it I I feel you know driven to do what I can to stop it. You know, I I know that I was living with a bunch of food-related physical challenges and and and symptoms and so on. And when I when I see how much that's um magnified in the last 30 years, it's only gotten worse. I mean, this is this is a problem that has gotten worse and worse. Many of the problems on our planet have actually gotten better and better over the last 30, 40, 50 years. I mean, there's less poverty as a percentage today than there's ever been. There's greater parity and equality in education between girls and boys today than there's ever been. There's uh lower, um uh it is safer for the children on the streets by double than it was when I grew up in the 70s. I mean, in every conceivable way, we've made things better and better and better, with with two exceptions, and that is our treatment of the environment and the our treatment of our own internal bodies. And I think that um, you know, I just feel very motivated to do something about those things.

FLORENCE: 5:26

When you were in your early 20s, I think it was no, it was in your teen years that you first awakened to the fact that sugar was not your friend. Tell us a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_00: 5:34

Actually, for me, it started actually with caffeine. Um I I was 18 years old and I re realized that um caffeine was using me. You know, I and and I want to be clear. I'm not here to say that people shouldn't have caffeine. I I I I I see it as a tool. And if you're using it, then maybe it can be useful. And but what I realized is that it was using me. I needed it. If I didn't get it, I would get headaches. It was terrible. And so I quit. I quit caffeine, you know, my my drug of choice at that point was Coca-Cola and Mocha and you know, that kind of thing. I just stopped. And so these days I might have caffeine four or five or six times a year, you know, because I'm using it as a tool in a given situation. And by the way, because I use it that way, it's very effective. You know, other people um, you know, use it just to be just to kind of get up to normal. So I prefer to manage normal on my own and then use it to become supernormal. But then a few years later, I I really ran into a similar realization. I was 21 and I ran into this similar situation with sugar. I realized that sugar was having a major impact on my life and food in general. And that's really when I started my research properly, you know, where I really started to um I look, I recognized that doctors weren't studying nutrition at all. And if they weren't gonna do it, then I felt like maybe I should.

FLORENCE: 6:51

Yeah, yeah. I I still marvel that, I mean, there's no shortage of information now about showing the science about how sugar and ultra-processed foods are hurting us, harming us metabolically and in terms of our mental health as well. I don't think it's a surprise to anybody that sugar and ultra-processed foods are harming us. But what surprises me, still surprises me, is that there are people still not willing to look at it. For example, I have a I have a high school student that works for me. She's local to my town, and her father was in the hospital with sepsis, and he has prediabetes, like all the metabolic markers, right? Not a well man, lovely man. Like just everyone loves him. He's a wonderful human being and he has a wonderful daughter. And when I found out about this, I thought, oh my gosh, I can totally help him. Let me share some information with you. Do you think you'd be open to it? And she was like, Well, I'm not sure. I'm like, that's so interesting. Right. I just assume, I just assume that people will be like, of course, please take me out of this suffering. I don't want sepsis. I don't want to be in a hospital. I don't want to be overweight. I don't want to be struggling with prediabetes and all these other nerve issues and this and that. And yet they don't believe, is it that they don't believe that food is powerful and can turn it around? I don't know what the disconnect is.

SPEAKER_00: 8:13

There are there are a number of disconnects. Um the one is uh exactly that, that there's that they don't fully believe that they can do anything about it. I mean, I will tell you that even doctors in America today are basically, in my opinion, uh, and I'm talking general practitioners here, but you know, uh a family doctor, they they fall into three categories with respect to something like diabetes. There's the category that has no idea that diabetes is fully reversible in most cases. There's just a category of doctors who don't even know that that that's possible. And then there's another category of doctors that they they know it's possible, but they have given up trying to talk their clients into changing because they just because they just don't. So they know it can be done, but instead what they do is they they say to their client, you have two choices, you can take this pharmaceutical solution, or you can you can follow the guidelines in this diet pamphlet that I'm about to give you. And they know it's hard enough to get people to take their pills, let alone change their food. And then and then there's the third category, and there's the third category, and it's a tiny minority of doctors that know that it's reversible and campaign vigorously with their clients to get them to make the lifestyle change, but I doubt that there's even 1% that are in that category. Now, so the first issue is that when you consider that if that's where the doctors are at, then what chance does a client like this have? You know, if if if the medical community has given up on the reversibility of diabetes, then why would any, why would the average person know that it could be reversed? You know, they don't. So that's the first problem is they they don't they don't believe that it can be reversed. And then secondly, even as they start to doubt that, even as they start to go, well, maybe it can, maybe I've heard a few stories that it has been done, they then move into this next issue, and that is, well, I've tried everything and failed. I've tried diets and I failed. And and and so even if it can be done, I can't do it. And so between those two things, at the end of the day, it's really hard to get somebody to actually be willing to take action. And that that that is where a huge my first major area of research was let's say nutritional anthropology and metabolic health. I mean, I went into that, but when I realized that I had discovered some things about that that were really helpful, I realized the next piece was it didn't matter because people weren't doing it. And so that the next area of research I went into is behavioral psychology, like really truly understanding food addiction, uh, you know, and and eating disorders. And I and I want to say this that I think almost everybody on this planet is on an eating disorder spectrum somewhere. Sure, we know that at the far end of the spectrum there's bulimia, there's anorexia, there's there's like full-blown, you know, uh eating disorders. But but the reality is most people have a low-grade eating disorder, and it works like this. Somebody brought donuts to the office and they have a voice in their head that goes, Oh, look, Jimmy brought the donuts. Yeah, but we're on a diet. Yeah, but they're free. I I know they're free, but they're still not good for us. But look how yummy they are. I mean, almost everybody has some dialogue like that about it, and that is the root of, let's say, an eating disorder, the inability to stick with what you know is best. And so that that's the piece we have to unlock if we're really gonna create change for people.

FLORENCE: 11:26

Right. And I think another piece that everyone's on a spectrum, I I often say the same thing. I think almost everybody on the planet has food issues. We're so confused about what to eat. There's the vegans and the carnivores fighting, no, veggies are bad. No, meat are bad. You're gonna go to hell. No, you're wrecking the planet. Whoa, right. And everyone's so confused. And then you're like wondering, is this good? Is fat bad? No, fat's good now. Oh, right. And so that has just made everything extra complicated for people to have confidence in doing something as radical as trying to change a medical condition just using food or primarily using food, or at least a food first approach.

SPEAKER_00: 12:01

Yeah, yeah. It and and and and think of it another way. I mean, my mom is a good example of this. I mean, okay, so my mom grows up in a medical family. Her her father was a world-renowned surgeon. She had many other doctors in the family. And so everything, you know, it's like it's that if if you're a hammer, everything's a nail, right? So it's like if if you grow up in that medical community, you're gonna look to those solutions immediately. So then she gets pregnant with me and and she, you know, puts on baby weight for me. And then for the next whatever, 30, 40 years, she's on diets, right? Trying to salt sort this stuff. Now, imagine what happens when I come forward and say, hey, I found some solutions that might be helpful. I'm her child, right? Like, what are the odds that she birthed the person that's going to come up with a solution with this? Now, I'm I'm using this as an extreme example, but this is how every consumer is. They're like, what do you mean you have the answer? Do you have a degree? Do you have a PhD in this? Are you a medical doctor? What cracks me up the most is uh I go off and do summits like this and webinars and I do interviews for media and podcasts and what have you. And always there's some somebody on their keyboard going, oh, but are you a medical doctor? I'm like, thank God I'm not, because not only do they not study food, but they study the antithesis. They study stuff that points you away from that is the solution. And and so the trouble is that we've all been trained to look to people with stethoscopes and clipboards for the answers relative to our health. And those are the people we should be turning to when we have a disease or when we have an injury or a trauma, but they're not the people that are there to help us maintain our health. That's not what they were trained to do. And so, in the case of my mom, one day she managed to go through one of our programs and she wrote me the most heartfelt letter. She's like, I can't believe it. I I've been struggling with this for 30, 40 years. And suddenly I understand my metabolism, I understand my psychology, I understand my behavior. And that's the that's the the epiphany that we try to give to people. And and uh you're right, they're very resistant to it. So we have to overcome those obstacles.

FLORENCE: 13:58

What got your mom there? What was the secret?

SPEAKER_00: 14:01

Do you know? I tricked her into it. I uh my my son wanted to maybe do our program, and but he, you know, he was a kid, and and I said, why don't you do it alongside him just to support him? And so she did it just to support him.

FLORENCE: 14:15

Wow, okay. Because I think that's that's the thing that is like the people on this summit are already at least open-minded enough. They're willing to listen. Okay, I have this condition, I I am suffering and I am struggling, and the things I've been doing clearly aren't enough. It's maybe better, but it's not I was made for more and I want more for my life.

SPEAKER_00: 14:36

And you know, they're the most important people, and I'll I'll tell you why, because I can let let's imagine for a moment that I found, let's say, some truths about nutritional anthropology. So we don't have to argue vegan carnivore anymore because there's a truth. Let's imagine that. And then let's imagine that we've discovered the truth about metabolic health and why we have the metabolism we have and how to run it. Let's let's pretend that we've got those solutions. I feel that we do. And then then let's imagine that we've unlocked this food psychology piece and we've we've we've we've created a system where people can actually change their neurology so they never have to go on a diet again. Let's imagine I've got all that. Until somebody follows those steps, I am a lunatic. But once somebody starts, I, you know, because the the line between visionary and lunacy is very fine. You know, it really is. When you are breaking new ground, when you're introducing new ideas, until you've got really solid results, you're you're walking that line between being a visionary and a lunatic. And so the people that show up for a summit like this, they're the ones that become the proof that it can change. And it's their friends that see them lose the weight. It's their friends that see them reverse their diabetes that changes everything. And I I have two great examples of that. I got this phone call from this woman in England one day, and she says, Hey, could you could you come to England? I want to introduce you to the health minister, to the to the prime minister. I want you to come. And I and I'm like, sure. And it turns out that she had gone to the NHS, and guess what? She's pre-diabetic, she's overweight, all that stuff. Then she does our program. She loses, I think it was like something like 60 pounds, and she's a parliamentary consultant. So what happens is all these people that are in power, they see how much she changes. And like those women in the movie Harry Met Sally, if you remember, I'll have what she's having.

FLORENCE: 16:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:22

A lot of those people start saying to her, hey, what are you doing? And the next thing you know, I'm not kidding you. I'm shaking hands with the prime minister, I'm talking to the health minister, and and and so on. So it's the people that get the results that help us to go. And I know it's a long answer, but a second example is I show up from my office one day and I have a meeting in my calendar. And the meeting I have in my calendar is with a guy named, you know, Ruben Ruiz MD, obviously a doctor. I don't know him, I don't know why I'm meeting with him. And he comes on and he tells me that in a single week, twice, he stopped at Starbucks to get himself a cup of coffee to keep himself awake. And he still fell asleep behind the wheel of the car twice and got in two car accidents. Luckily, nobody was badly hurt. But here he was, sitting at home, having had two accidents in a week because he fell asleep behind the car in the morning because he didn't have energy. And he's a doctor and he's running three medical clinics, and he's suddenly realizing, what business do I have being a doctor? I I I can't even, I can't. And then he said I he was so frustrated and went online and he started looking for answers, and he ended up doing one of our master classes. And three months later, he'd lost 40 pounds, he'd reversed his type 2 diabetes, he'd reversed his hypertension, and he got off nine of his 10 prescription medications. It took a few months to get off the 10th one. And the reason that he'd booked a meeting with me is he wanted to co-write a book with me because we had to get this message out of the world. So it is the very people that are showing up for summits like this that should be empowered to make these changes in their life so that they can become the beacons of hope for the people who can't quite see it yet.

FLORENCE: 17:52

Right. Okay, right. This just reminds me of that uh the bell curve of the early adopters doing the work, being the living examples that these simple food principles really make a difference. They really move the needle, they create miracles. Um and then the early adopters, so the early adopters and the the first early majority, they're the ones that slowly start to go, okay, but let me pick it all apart. Let's do the research, let's confirm this is a real thing. It's not just one-offs.

SPEAKER_00: 18:18

Yeah.

FLORENCE: 18:19

Then uh yeah, and then it becomes a bit the tipping point to the majority. So I I see what you're saying. We're still the early adopters, they're still the ones that are showing up to be the guinea pigs around does this really work? One day I I um I told my one of my coaching groups that it is absolutely absurd that I get paid to do what I do because all I'm basically teaching you to do is eat whole foods. Three meals, no snacks. And can you imagine a hundred years ago if I if I told people that people hire me to teach them how to eat three meals a day, no snacks, whole foods, prioritize protein, get enough like all right? And they'd be like, what? That's hilarious. What? No, what like it's hella it's so simple. Like, what is there to doubt here? It's like literally common sense.

SPEAKER_00: 19:05

Hey, there's people getting paid to teach breath work. I mean, like, I I I listen, we've we've lost touch with how to breathe properly, we've lost touch with how to move properly, we've lost touch with how to eat properly, we've lost touch with how to sleep properly. And so you're absolutely right. We're now at a place where it is profitable to have common sense.

FLORENCE: 19:24

Right, right. And how how absurd that we think this is that sounds woo-woo. Ah, what's woo-woo about it? So tell us a bit about how you get these amazing results from people like your mom and the others.

SPEAKER_00: 19:36

I I I would say that there are there are three main components. Um, the first component is resolving what nutrition really is. And the food industry, and frankly, the diet industry, and certainly the pharmaceutical industry, would like us to be confused about this because with confusion comes cognitive dissonance, and with that comes, you know, just eating whatever they tell you to eat, right? So what what I what I would suggest is that the first Component to our success has been really doing a deep dive into um the reality of diet, and that is that every living species on earth has a diet, and when they veer from that diet, they become sick, and when they are on that diet, they maintain a sense of health. And sapiens are one of those species. And while there are very, very small individualized changes, the fundamental human diet remains the same for everybody. And it's not confusing. It's not bread is good, bread is bad, potatoes are good, potatoes are bad, meat is good, meat is bad. No, there is there is a we know what the human diet is. There is no mystery about that anymore, except that there are influencers out there creating mystery. There are food industry analysts and lobbyists that want us to be confused. But the principle that I suggest everybody can lean on quite easily here is that any food idea or fad principle or research study that you that you that you run across that contravenes evolutionary biology has to be considered suspect. We we know from our own archaeological history, from our modern day hunter-gatherer relatives, and even from our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, chimpanzees and bonobos, if you compare those four diets, they're basically the same. And so there is no mystery at all anymore about what we're supposed to be eating. And so that's item number one. Item number two is that we also have to look at what we call ancestral food rhythms, and that is that we evolve to eat foods in certain patterns. And if we we can eat really, really good foods, but if we eat them in the wrong patterns, we can still create health crises. For example, I'm about to drive up into Mendocino County, and when I get there, there are bears there. Probably won't see any, but if I do, I want you to think about the fall time. Because in the fall, what are they doing? They're eating a ton of berries and salmon and and they're fattening up for the winter. Because the food cycle they're in causes their metabolism to slow down and fatten them up. But that's to help them survive the winter. What if we trap that bear in autumn for six years? Diabetes and obesity. And it never ate a Mars bar and it never ate seed oils, and it never, it never ate ice cream. It just ate the right things for the wrong period of time. And so ancestral food rhythms become an important part of this, both in terms of how we eat on a daily basis, how we eat certain food items, and then how we eat on a macro basis, like seasonally. And then the third piece is food psychology, and that is understanding that our emotional states have been sponsored and hijacked by the food industry. Our emotional states have been manipulated unintentionally by our parents, you know, by using food as a as a way of connecting or as an anesthetic and what have you. And we have to deframe some of those beliefs that we have around food so that we can recreate a conscious relationship with food. And those three things have turned out to be unbelievably effective. We've had over 150,000 people go through our core programs and I mean, they've lost millions of pounds and reverse diabetes routinely and what have you. And so though those three things are key.

FLORENCE: 23:02

Amazing. And I know everyone's gonna wonder like, what is the truth about human nutrition?

SPEAKER_00: 23:08

Well, as I say, if you look at our ancestors, that is to say, the archaeological record, my I found myself in a cave in Southern Africa once, many times, but the first time. And I was so fascinated by this cave. And I read the plaque on the wall, and I went and asked my grandmother that day about the plaque because the guy who the the the plaque said that the caves are originally excavated by this guy, TF Dreyer, and I I recognized the name. It was my my my dad's mom's maiden name. And so I asked her if she knew this TF Dreer, and she goes, Well, yeah, it was it was her father. And uh, so he had actually excavated these caves that I was in. And and and one of these sets of caves, they've dug down into the floor because when people live in caves, they just, you know, they litter on the floor and the floor grows, you know, like the floor grows. Over the space of 200,000 years, the floor might grow by 12 feet or something like that. So it's like, you know, and so they cut down into them and put glass walls up. So you can you can see 200,000 years of human eating. There's no mystery about that. And and and the answer is that humans have always eaten seasonally available meats, fishes, shellfishes, eggs, poultry, that sort of stuff, and seasonally available plants, including uh, you know, a variety of seasonally available uh uh vegetables and fruits and potentially some nuts and seeds. That's it. Like that that that's what we've always been eating. And if we focus on those things, we're gonna do a lot better.

FLORENCE: 24:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 24:31

And then if you compare that to uh our our modern day hunter-gatherer tribes that still exist, and there's a few of them still around, you can just watch them in their natural habitat where they follow their instincts in their environment. And what do they eat? Seasonally available meats, fishes, eggs, and poultry, and the various plants that are around them. That's it. And then we can go into the deeper jungle where our more distant relatives, like chimpanzees and bonobos, are, and we can watch what they eat. And what do they eat? Seasonally available meats, fishes, eggs, and and and and uh and and uh you know, seasonally available fruits and nuts and seeds and vegetables. Like that's it. It's it's not it's not difficult to determine this.

FLORENCE: 25:09

Right. I thought chimpanzees were primarily vegetarian, that they ate very little animal.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

No, you you thought that because because it was early vegan propaganda. And and I I thought that too for the longest time. In fact, I was vegan for a while.

FLORENCE: 25:22

And you too, right?

SPEAKER_00: 25:24

And I can tell you that, you know, um they're not only not only is that not true, but they are about the most effective hunters on the planet uh outside of us with our weaponry. They they don't, they don't, they don't like when you see lions hunting, it might look like there was a strategy. It might look like that, that lions were hunting and then another one jumped out, and it's not. It's there's not the same level of strategy. Even African wild dogs use more strategy than lions. But chimpanzees, first of all, one of their favorite things to hunt is colobus monkeys. And colobus monkeys, um, you know, they they they hear the chimpanzees coming and they run to the to the edges of the branches because chimpanzees can't climb out there because they're so heavy. So the chimpanzees understand this. So instead of just chasing them, they use psychological warfare against them. They they they pound their chests and they make a ton of noise and they screech and they scare the colobus monkeys so as to give them adrenaline. And adrenaline makes them irrational, so they won't just sit at the end of the branches, they'll keep running. And so the chimpanzees run and chase and swing through the trees. But in the meantime, their arms get so tired that when they finally catch them, they won't be in a position to kill them. But luckily, they've told their friends where they're chasing them to. They they've worked it out like like like warfare. It's incredible how human they are in their strategies. They're very, very effective hunters.

FLORENCE: 26:45

Because I just go back to the uh that woman who used to put the bananas up her shirt. Um, she spent uh decades in the jungle. She's known as the monkey woman.

SPEAKER_00: 26:55

Um there's two of them. Diane Fosse.

FLORENCE: 26:58

Diane Fosse. What's the other one? Is the other one I'm thinking of?

SPEAKER_00: 27:00

I'm really embarrassed that I can't think of it.

FLORENCE: 27:02

Me too. I'm like shocked. Jean, uh Jane, something, Jane.

SPEAKER_00: 27:07

Goodall.

FLORENCE: 27:08

Goodall. Jane Goodall, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:10

Well, firstly, most of there there is some truth to this idea that some of the primates are plant-based, like gorillas. Um, gorillas are, you know, they're herbivorous, that's what they eat. But chimpanzees and bonobos are not. And we are much more related, much more closely related to chimpanzees and bonobos. In fact, I think there's an argument been made that we're more closely related to one of them than the other one is. Like we're the, we are, in effect, the third chimpanzee. Or if we weren't so arrogant, we might call them homotroglodites instead of trying to disassociate from them. But that's that's sacrilegious language in some circles.

FLORENCE: 27:47

Got it. Okay, awesome. So, what in particular about sugar do you want people to know and understand?

SPEAKER_00: 27:54

It's not evil. Sugar in and of itself is not a bad thing. And and, you know, that's the big problem these days is that we try to vilify it and we know sugar's bad and you should give up all sugar. And that's absolutely not true. There are evil sugars. I would argue that, you know, uh corn syrup and and processed refined sugar is a form of poison, frankly. But but the idea that sugar itself is evil is wrong. Um, our ancestors had a fabulous relationship with sugar, and it worked like this. For most of the year, carbohydrate foods were not readily available. But every now and again, carbohydrate foods would become plentiful in the form of root vegetables, fruits, you know, honey, that sort of thing. And when we ate those things, our pancreases were like very happy to start producing insulin to help us balance off that huge influx of sugar. But the challenge is that it tastes so good that if it's around too often, we seem to lose control. Now, in the old world, Mother Nature came along and said, No more sugar for you. It's out of season. It's done. And you might have some withdrawal symptoms for a little while and you might be a bit sad about it, but when it was done, it was done. But the challenge we have today is that we've mastered the environment, we've taken over agriculture, we we can grow what we want, we can fly it from wherever we want. I mean, even when I was a kid, I remember when I was a kid, you didn't get mangoes in the grocery store. Occasionally, occasionally, you know, and even bananas were seasonal and so on. And then, and then all of a sudden now you can buy mangoes year-round in pretty much any grocery store around the world now, because they'll fly them in from Costa Rica when they're in season from there, then they'll come from Mexico, then they'll come from Africa, then, you know, it it it's we're now at a place where even the healthy sugars are so readily available that we can't be blamed for eating them all the time. And then equally, we now have a variety of, you know, food-like substances that are full of sugar and sweetness that trick us. And so, you know, it we're in a position where our instinct is if it's sweet and yummy, we should eat as much of it as we can because that was once a survival instinct. But now it's so readily available that we need to bring consciousness to that conversation and say to actually, no, I shouldn't be doing that all the time. So it's not that sugar's evil, it's that it's too available.

FLORENCE: 30:03

Right. And that some of the stuff is just too processed, it's just not a real whole food anymore that our bodies had any idea what to do with in that level of concentration. So, what does a typical eating day? Like in in terms of if you were to give someone a meal plan to start here, this start here, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

Well, I won't do that. And I I I don't ascribe to um say meal plans in the traditional sense for for a number of reasons. I'm I'm not into people using their, I don't know how to put it, but like heavy amounts of control or structure. Um because at the end of the day, we all get serotonin and dopamine rewards for rebelling. So the more rules you give people, the more opportunities you're giving them for rebellion. And so I'm not a big fan of that. What I'd rather do is give people principles to operate by. And so one of the principles that we operate by, I mentioned earlier, are something called ancestral food rhythms. So there are sort of three ways to look at ancestral food rhythms. One is on a food-by-food basis. So if you consider the way our ancestors would have eaten fruit, they would have eaten it quickly and with reckless abandon. In other words, you're sitting at the tree, the fruit is finally there, and you're just eating and looking around to make sure you stay safe. And you're just the way we eat popcorn in the movie theater, just like just stuff in your face with as much as you can. It would require a bunch of physical exertion. You'd have to walk out there, you might have to climb into the tree, but you would eat it and you would overeat it. And you would overeat it and to the point that you were producing endorphins that would act as a painkiller. So you didn't even notice your stomach filling up because your ability to pack yourself full of that fruit was a life-saving trait that would make it possible for you to get through the winter. So when we eat fruit, I would rather that somebody decided to have reckless abandon and eat fruit heavily, occasionally, rather than saying, well, just have one strawberry with your meal every day. Like, no, no, you're I'd rather that you, you know, and then another example would be something like nuts. Nuts we couldn't eat that way because the work involved in collecting them and cracking them open would have slowed down the frequency. So, so even in a simple sense today, I've noticed this trend lately at Whole Foods and Trader Joe's and different places where you can now buy your pistachio nuts shelled. Well, that's a mistake, in my opinion, because the fact that they were in the shells would slow down how quickly you could eat them, which means your satiation signals could kick in quicker. Now you could just take a handful of them and shove them in your mouth. Well, take that further back to what about the nuts that were like try and open a macadamia nut by yourself. Good luck with that. You know, you need a machine. You need rocks and smashing them. So, in other words, when we eat nuts, we should slow down the frequency with which we eat them. You know, one of the tricks we give our clients is if you're if you've got nuts in the house, don't go get a bowl of nuts and put them on the table at your desk. Leave them in the kitchen and occasionally go get a small handful of them and nibble at them. But when you want to go get another handful, drop and give yourself 10 push-ups because you would have needed to climb a tree to get those nuts. So now you're buying the nuts with energy. You're you're saying I have to do, which means you might not get as many nuts. Or if you do, you're doing the effort that would have been involved in collecting them. Uh, meat is another good example. I mean, i i if you and I were in a tribe and I had just killed us a mammoth, you would not nibble at the meat slowly and go and find some potatoes and and and vegetables to have with your meat. You would eat it and you would eat it as much as you could and you would eat it quickly. So these understanding the sort of the way we ate foods helps us understand the way our digestive digestive system evolved to deal with those things. Now what happens is people eat like the wrong types of foods too quickly and overwhelm their digestion and they can't handle it. We we we want variety so much that we want variety on our plate. Our ancestors didn't worry about variety on our plate, they worried about variety across seasons. So that's sort of on a food-by-food basis. Then you have the day-by-day basis, which is similar to intermittent fasting. If you think about what a an uh you know, hunter-gatherer ate for breakfast in the morning. Well, nothing. They didn't have a pantry and they didn't have a fridge and they didn't have Uber Eat. So, what did Hunter Gather eat for breakfast? Body fat. Because they got up and they started working for it. And maybe two hours later, they would finally have some food. And so the idea of delaying your first meal by a few hours in the day is just an ancestral rhythm. Equally, once the sun went down, you are no longer foraging for food because once the sun went down, life was bloody dangerous for our ancestors. So you did not go, geez, I I feel like I just need one more little thing before bed. No, you didn't, because if you went out to get that one little thing, you became the one little thing before bed for a lion or something. So, so the idea of stopping eating once the sun went down is a natural ancestral rhythm. So that that's kind of the the daily rhythms. Um, you can also get into this question of is it you know ideal to have two or three or one meal a day and so on? I think that has a lot to do with lifestyle. But the truth is one really solid, nutritious meal a day is enough. There's no question about that. Now, a lot of people don't want to do that, and and and I don't do that all the time either, but but we do not need this. The whole three meals a day idea was invented by shift work to make sure that you got your meal. You went and worked your shift, you took your lunch break, you took your shift. I think that the way we eat naturally is that sometimes we are snacking and browsing because that's the season we're in. But then equally there's other times, like in hunting season, when you're eating once a day because you ate so much, you're done. And then the third rhythm that we pay attention to is the metabolic rhythm. And this is maybe the most important of all of them, and that is that humans evolve three metabolic states, um, three systems of energy management. And if we don't run all three of them, there are consequences. And most people will not run all three of them. They will really only run one, and that is burning sugar. Our bodies treat sugar, our bodies kind of act a bit like sugar is a toxin. Like the minute you put sugar in, your body immediately prioritizes getting it out immediately. So you eat sugar, insulin starts getting, you gotta, you gotta deal with that. We gotta, we can't let the blood sugar get too high, or else we die. So we we we run in this sugar burning mode as long as we're putting sugar in. But if you didn't put sugar in, say for example, Mother Nature came along and said, sugar's done, then your body has to go, well, now what am I gonna do? And obviously it starts burning fat at that point. And it needs to do that from time to time. And if it doesn't do that, well, there's consequences, including the accumulation of too much fat and the accumulation of old fat. And neither of those things are ideal. And then there's the third metabolic state, which is, you know, protein autophagy, which is to say burning out old, sick, broken proteins from your body. And that only ever happens when you fast, when you actually fast. Now, Mother Nature used to make us fast. Mother Nature came along and said, sorry, no food for you. And then the body went in and goes, Well, geez, we've got no blood sugar to burn, and I don't know if I want to burn my fat. I mean, we have this could be a long winter. And so your body looks inside and it starts looking for old broken collagen chains and proteins and amino acids that are floating around doing nothing, and it burns them and that cleanses out the system. We need to run all three of those cycles, and the average person doesn't, and that and and they and there are consequences.

FLORENCE: 37:08

And that's called autophagy.

SPEAKER_00: 37:10

Protein autophagy, when we burn our own internal proteins. And I know the some gym rats are like, you don't want to do that, you'll burn your muscle. Your body is so smart. My favorite little metaphor for this is imagine that you and I, and uh, let's see you and I host a big retreat up in the north of Norway. We'll go to Tromsow and we'll see the northern lights. All of a sudden, there's a massive blizzard, the roads are closed, and we run out of heating fuel in our little manor, and we're we're gonna freeze. And so we start thinking, what are we gonna do? And we're gonna start looking around the manor for things to burn. But what we're not gonna do is grab the super valuable antique grand piano and burn that. We're gonna look for the old broken picnic table and we're gonna burn that. We're gonna look for the most useless magazines that don't have any value and we're gonna burn those. And that's exactly how our bodies operate. When you go into that fasted state after about 48 hours, your body starts looking around for broken proteins. It starts looking around for floating useless amino acids and burning them out and cleaning them. And the consequence of not doing that is, well, a clogged system.

FLORENCE: 38:12

Amazing. So um, I can imagine that there are people listening to the summit saying, oh man, he sounds like he's advocating intuitive eating within seasons, within principles. And many of us have struggled with intuitive eating because we're not getting that same kind of clarity. Either our leptin and relin are off, or like there's just a struggle to do what you're describing. Is there some way that people can ease into it to long-term be successful?

SPEAKER_00: 38:37

So the way we designed our programs is exactly to deal with that. That that, I mean, I very often I get brought onto a podcast or something and go, well, Eric, tell us what to eat. And I go, I don't want to do that because then this is a diet. I tell you what to eat, and now you're following a diet. I don't want that. I want people to create a lifestyle. And in order to create a lifestyle, what they're gonna have to do is learn that intuitive eating is a fundamentally flawed principle in the diet industry because our intuition has been hijacked. See, you here as a good example, you as a sapien have an instinct, and that instinct is if I'm eating sugar, I should find more sugar. That's that's a the that's why when we eat carbs, we crave carbs. It's a survival mechanism. That means that when you're eating carbs, your intuition says eat more carbs. So you can try to train your intuition to say, no, that's not good for me. And I should try to be more intuitive about that. But your instincts were created over millions of years. You there's not much you can do about that. We all need to know that if we are going to eat the bread at the beginning of the meal, there's an increased chance we're going to want the dessert because that's why they serve the bread, because it's activating our intuition, it's activating our instinct. We're what we're talking about is something very different, and that is going through a step by step process of deframing the existing food beliefs that we have and the existing food relationships. And then understanding our relationship with food so that we can trigger the right intuition. As a good example, the GLP1 craze at the moment, which is just shocking to me. I mean, it's this is not the first weight loss miracle drug to come along that worked. And it's not the first miracle drug to come along that hurt people. This has been happening over and over again. But the difference with GLP1s and and that family is that what they're attempting to do is mimic a natural biological function. But what we do with our clients is we get them to mimic the GLP1s without taking the pills. Because there are certain foods that when you eat them, you you create your own GLP1 peptides. That's what they're mimicking. They're mimicking natural satiation in your body. So why take a drug to do that when there are certain foods that can make you do that? So, for example, with our clients, we don't give them a day-by-day meal plan because there is no day-by-day meal plan because our ancestors grew up with seasonal fluctuation. So there's a season where fruit is available. During that time, eat fruit and you'll crave more of it. And that's going to be okay as long as you understand the window of time that you're doing that for. But then you'll move to a time when you're not eating fruit and you're not eating bread and pasta and carbohydrates. You take a break from that. And what's fascinating is when somebody does take a break from that, within three or four days, their intuition changes. Their cravings go down because they're basically getting a message in their body, oh, Mother Nature has taken the carbs away. Now it's tough when they see them again, but their internal biochemistry says, I'm not eating carbs, I don't crave carbs. So, no, I am not advocating for intuitive eating. I'm advancing for advocating for retraining that intuition both psychologically and biochemically.

FLORENCE: 41:42

Right, right. Which suggests, to play a little bit of a devil's advocate, it does suggest suggesting that make sure you're getting enough protein in there. Make sure that you're thinking about seasonal, that you research when would the berries have been gone and your part of the country. And if you're in tropical countries or countries where it's year-round and stuff like that, then they eat differently than someone who's in a northern country like mine, which is Canada.

SPEAKER_00: 42:05

Okay. This is a really important thing to understand. Uh um evolution is a um evolution is a painfully slow process. It's really, really slow. And um, and so you um are more similar to um somebody from Africa um than I how do I how to put this? We humans are a species, and we are only indigenous to one place on this planet, and that's Africa. I know that in Canada it's politically correct to refer to the indigenous people of Canada, and politically speaking, they're they are indigenous, but they're not actually scientifically indigenous. They're immigrants to Canada like the rest of us. Canada never had humans until humans immigrated there, South America never had humans until humans immigrated there. The reason I'm saying this is that I am not talking about mimicking the seasons where you are. I'm talking about mimicking the metabolic states that respond to the seasons where you evolved, which is sub-Saharan Africa. So you don't need to know when the when the berries are in season. And you know, if you're in Eastern Canada and you want to go out and grab the blueberries, go for it if you want. That's fine. But what I'm talking about is you choosing your optimal life experience based on the metabolism that's going to support you in getting there. So, for example, if you have a client who's put on, say, a couple of extra pounds and maybe their A1C is slid up into the prediabetic range, what that means is they've been in the wrong season. Doesn't matter where they live, they've been eating in the wrong season. They've been eating in the carb season for too long. And so what will help them is to switch to a non-carb season, irrespective of where they live. I don't care if they're in Minnesota or Singapore, it's not about that. It's about them making a conscious decision decision to switch their foods to the spring season, which is to say that not in carbs. And the minute they do that, their cravings for carbs will start to reduce, their metabolisms will speed up, and they will start to release weight and their A1C will start to correct. Diabetes, for example, isn't a disease. It's a repetitive stress injury, in my opinion.

FLORENCE: 44:09

Right, right. Oh gosh, I wish we could go there. I know we're gonna run out of time here. So East Africa, in my mind, I've never been to East Africa, but in my mind, it's Africa. They have carbs all year round, all year. If it's not one carb, it's another carb. No, tell me about that. It's warm there.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

No, no, no. Uh Africa, first of all, you we have to really get Africa is a collection of many, many countries with completely different environments. I mean, you've got complete desert and you've got complete jungle, and then you've got our home, which is Savannah. We we are ultimately savannah apes. I mean, that's that's that's what the the uh Africa was once basically uh jungle from Cape Town to Cairo. When we are current, this is this is we are currently in an ice age. We're right now in an ice age. This is something most people don't understand about climate. An ice age is defined as the period of time when the polar caps are frozen. Now, inside an ice age, you have periods of glaciation and interglacial periods. So we are currently in an interglacial period of the current ice age. 15,000 years ago, we had a glaciation, right? But now we're in an interglacial period. When this ice age began, it sucked all the water out of Africa. And so Africa used to be completely forested and jungled. Now there are big deserts and big savanna areas. And that event is what shrunk the forests and forced our early ancestors to have to make a career on living in the grasslands. And so I have spent, as you mentioned in the bio, 15 years visiting the Hudzabe people. And uh they live in savannah conditions and and carbs for them are seasonal and rare. The the honey is is is available during the season when the bees are making lots of honey. The baobab trees produce fruit at a given season, and then that fruit is available. The berries are available in a given season, but there's not any time, there's not a single time when carbon, or I should put it another way, it is not that carbs are available throughout the year, they're available in peak periods. And that's why we evolve the metabolism we have. Look, a crocodile can eat a Nile, a Nile crocodile can eat a buffalo once in a year and then not eat again for a year. That is its metabolism. It evolved that metabolism. We evolved a different metabolism. Our metabolism is when it's fall, we eat lots of carbohydrate foods to help us fatten up to get through the winter. The winter was not the Canada winter. It wasn't this cold thing. It was a long dry drought. And if we didn't have enough water and energy packed onto our bodies, we did not survive that long dry drought. So we ate lots and lots of carbs, we stored fat, we survived that drought, and then the rains came and the hunting got incredibly good, and we switched to protein priority. And guess what? Any excess weight left over after the winter went off, or any blood sugar anomalies corrected and the cycle began again.

FLORENCE: 47:02

Okay. So someone, let's say someone's obese or morbidly obese or just really, really overweight and knows I I need I need to move into the protein cycle, like in the spring or the winter, is it okay to skip the fall eating season, even if you're overweight? Like would you just say, just do it anyways, like go for the fruit in the fall and don't worry, it'll work itself?

SPEAKER_00: 47:23

No, you're exactly right. Um, I I I what I mean, there's a bit of a metaphor for this, and that is that if somebody is, say, um uh say either type 2 diabetic or heavily overweight or both, um, then what they have is health debt. They they have a health debt they've been trapped in the wrong season for too long and they've overspent in that season. And so, like somebody who has heavy credit card debts, there's no season where they should spend spend frivolously. They they shouldn't do that. They should prioritize um paying down their debt and and taking care of their basic needs. Same thing here. So if somebody's got that health debt, then what they would probably what I would recommend to them is that the ultimate season for them would be to go into spring, to to mimic spring as best they could, which is to say that they're not eating carbohydrates. They're eating as, and by the way, the beautiful thing about spring is there's no caloric restriction. There's no, there's no food portion control. There's none of that. There's literally eat as much as you want. Because the gorgeous thing is your body will produce natural GPT LP1s and stop you. Because when you're eating those foods, they're so nutritionally dense that the body goes, I'm done with that. And that season is going to be the season that's going to cause the best blood sugar correction and the blood best weight release. Now, that said, what we have found is some clients go into that season and then they plateau. It's like the body doesn't believe them that winter is never coming again. And so we'll we'll often say, okay, come out and have one day of fall, two days of fall, and then go back in again. And that'll cause a reset and it'll begin the weight loss journey again. So it's not that you can just go into that season expecting to be a miracle. The body still needs reset every now and again. But but you know, in a real sense, fall is the season of accumulation. Winter is the season of deprivation and cleansing. And then spring is the is the season of of releasing any excess weight that's been put on and the accumulation of muscle and and and the support of the immune system and and the season of breeding, it's it's it's amazing.

FLORENCE: 49:24

So what would what do people what I think spring, I think the first early shoots of green, I think. Yep. I mean, so little leafy greens and protein or I'll describe it for you beautifully. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 49:37

I don't know if you know this, but many of the animals in Africa, um, you know, gazelles and wildebeests and zebras and stuff, they have about a six-week breeding cycle, but they birth on the same day. Isn't that interesting? So they breed over a six-week cycle and then they roughly drop their babies on the same day. I mean, you know, it's not an exact science, there's some spread, but they roughly do it. How do they time it like that? They time it based on the rains. So imagine that you've had this long winter, you and I, early hunter-gatherers, we've had this long winter, we've lost some relatives. It's been tough. And uh and then we haven't seen water for ages. The plants are the place is brown. You know, the the the animals are scarce. It's been tough. It's been really tough. Then all of a sudden in the distance, we hear some rumbling and we look over, and there's some dark clouds and some lightning crashing. And as that storm begins to move toward us and we see our first rains in months or even years, the rain starts thundering down onto the savannah. We get our first major rainfalls. Immediately, all of the undulate animals, all those, all those ungulate, I should, I meant to say, uh, animals, they start dropping their babies. The hunting becomes unbelievably good for us and the leopards and the lions and the cheetahs. And the reason, by the way, that those babies are all dropped on the same day is it's the best way to make sure some of them make it. Because if they dropped a few on Monday and a few on Tuesday and a few on Wednesday, the lions would just pick them all off. But they don't. And so now there's incredible hunting. So what are we doing? We're eating huge amounts of protein. And then within two or three days of that, what is coming up from the soil? Greens. Their spring.

FLORENCE: 51:19

Got it. Oh my gosh. Okay, this is torture. I know you need to go. So just tell us about your books, how people can find you, all those good things.

SPEAKER_00: 51:27

Sure. I mean, uh the the book that I consider to be unbelievable, well, all three of them are very important, but uh post-diabetic was released last year, co-authored with Dr. Rubin or Ruben Ruiz MD, that I talked about before. Um it was released with Hay House. We ran into all kinds of difficulties advertising it on Facebook because they don't want to talk about diabetes reversal. We can all speculate as to why that is. But uh that's it's a it's a it's um it's an easy-to-follow nine-week guide to reversing pre-diabetes and type 2 diabetes. The WildFit Way comes out next month or in September, actually this month, it comes out in September with Hay House, and it is a description of the Wild Fit principles. It is not a diet book, it is an understanding of nutritional principles that will help people really master the relationship with food. And the Evolution Gap is a book that explores evolutionary mismatch, and that is, it answers this basic question: how is it possible that we're living in the very best, safest, most certain times in the history of earth? And we have more anxiety, depression, suicide than ever before. And it's ultimately because we have something called nature deprivation syndrome, and the book helps people to identify that. In fact, it uh they can go to gapfinder.com and at gapfinder.com, they can actually do an evaluation, an evolutionary mismatch evaluation that will help them determine exactly where in their life their distance from nature is causing them pain and how they can fix it with either natural or modern solutions.

FLORENCE: 52:44

Amazing. And if you're curious about what post-diabetic means, it will shock you. It's a whole other interview. Look them up, look up the term. It's it's not like we reverse it, right? It's that there's life after diabetes. But do you want to just clarify it quickly and then we'll go?

SPEAKER_00: 52:59

The short version is this that um, you know, diabetes uh in most cases uh is reversible, type two, that is. Of course, if people have it long enough, they can do damage that isn't reversible, but the condition is generally reversible. We call it post-diabetic because what happens is that as people reverse their type 2 diabetes, they end up in a range that's similar to prediabetes, but they're trending in the other direction, which means that their medical advice should be different. And so if we keep calling them prediabetic, we're gonna prescribe them metformin. What we have to do is take a look and say, hey, they might look prediabetic right now, but they're trending the other way. So we refer to them as post-diabetic. But even after they've recorrected all the way and they're no, they're they're like now not type two diabetic, we still refer to them as post-diabetic because by developing the condition once, they've shown a propensity for developing it again. And so they need to be a little bit more cautious about their seasonal relationship with food than say somebody who's never had it at all.

FLORENCE: 53:52

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 53:53

The book was co-authored by Ruben Ruiz and the forward was written by Mark Hyman. It's a it's a force. It's a it's a valuable book.

FLORENCE: 53:59

It's incredible. They're all amazing books. Thanks so much for your time. We really appreciate it and all your beautiful work.

SPEAKER_00: 54:04

Thank you very much.

FLORENCE: 54:10

Thanks for tuning in this week. If you would like more interviews, more information, and more inspiration on how to break up with sugar, go to my YouTube channel, Kick Sugar Coach, or my website, kicksugarcoach.com. See you next week.